Creativity is stifled under capitalism, imo.

Misfire is simply wrong. Supposedly “primitive” cultures guaranteed that everyone was taken care of. These peoples often enjoyed freedom of choice, accountability, innovation, AND LEISURE TIME. (See _The Great Transformation_ by Karl Polanyi.) The type of cultural pathology that Misfire points out, one sees running rampant only in Western Civilization. That Western Civilization is one of the pinnacles, or the pinnacle, of human civilization is arguably the greatest and most self-serving myth of Western “Civilization”. Western “Civilization” has always been one of the most barbaric of cultures. Where else has anyone seen the policy of Mutually Assured Destruction, and the use and avid development of Weapons of Mass Destruction? If one doubts this myth, go visit Iraq or Palestine for current examples–or visit one of the ghettoes in the U.S.

Sorry, my comment on the above date and time was intended for another site. No matter, if the shoe fits, ware it.

Don

You claim to having read Marx. Then you should have gleaned from the reading that the very first requirement for a worker to understand his or her economic relationaship in a capitalist society. One would think that you would not have delve deeply into Marx’s writing to grasp some of that. Be aware of your surroundings, Marx didn’t just conjure stuff out of his head, he was aware of his surroundings and a schoar of history. Do you fancy yourself a scholar of history.

The US capitalist economy came to screeching halt during the “Great Depression.” Why? The system was able to produce an abundance of everything for everyone. Well, why not, the capitalist class extracted excessive surplus value through exploitation of wage labor (what Marx referred to as “wage slavery”). In layman’s terms excessive surplus value means excessive profits. Here is the key to the rub. Pay workers more and they are able to buy more. Pay them less and they are able to buy less. All workers should know that the tendency of the capitalist class is to reduce its capital investment, socially necessary labor time (the hourly time a worker expends in the production of a product). It follows that all workers should know that when the capitalist class does that (squeeze blood out of a turnip) and take his reduce pay check to the store, he can buy less of the merchandise. That is not a tendency, it is a fact of life exerted upon the worker by the veracious appetite the capitalist class has for profit.

What brought the US capitalism out of the depression was a great war (“the war to end all wars”!!!). But along with that came a major hitch. Who is going to pay for it. The more that the capitalist class foots the bill, the less their profit margin is–perish the thought. The capitalist class informs its governmental lackys, just charge it. Charge it to who or what? From thereon came about the floating of paper. But there is a limit to floating paper within the nation. Upon the great war, it is piled upon by the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Iraq War and all the other minor military expeditions. There came a time when the domestic float of paper became saturated (workers should know what a float is, with the use of computers,transaction became almost immediate. Workers can no longer float, write out a check without funds in the checking account to cover it and hope to make a deposit to cover it in time. Even before the advent of computers, the worker’s float would be saturated quickly). Several years ago, the US started to stretch the float with foreign countries. In the beginning mainly with Japan and now heaped on with China. Can you imagine, dealing all those year with that “red scare” and now heaping upon our country’s float from that country, and the Chinese Communist Party is still intact! A corollary is the float (plastic) of the working class (commonally referred to as consumers), the vast majority of the country. Now with the saturation of paper float is added the saturation of plastic float. One doesn’t have to laboriously peruse the writings of Marx to see that. Just plant your eyes on the business section of the daily newspapers (be aware of your surroundings). The one thing that economists agree on is that the major element that drives the American economy are the everyday consumers, of course they shudder to say the working class.

As any worker should readily see, the country is in dire straits. The first order of the day is not to frantically dissipate energy thrashing the proposition of socialism. If a worker so fervently rejects socialism, then the logical thing to do is come up with a better proposition to put an end to the dire straits of capitalist economy. “Government for the people, by the people and of the people,” and “we the people,” lets us hear it. The silence is deafening.

Don

See:

Socialism (older posts)

Socialism (newer posts)

Anarchism (older posts)

Anarchism (newer posts)

Your words:

“You must be getting made. Your spelling and grammar is starting to go.”

“I forgot, you like Venezula better. Seniors in Caracas or seniors in Scottsdale.”

As to the second sentence. If you want to take off the gloves and fight dirty, fine. I forgot you have a fascist streak.

I posted my last comment in hast due to being occupied for the duration of the day with something else. If you are aware of the misspelling than you should also be aware of the word and its meaning and also the sentence that I left a word out. What you preferred to do was to .fix attention to that instead of addressing the arrogant false insinuation that you made.

You resort to making a fascist insinuation because you know that most people reading it will not go back to my original comment to verify it. Having a level of spelling and grammar par excellence gives you the privilege of saying anything you damn please.

By the way, “Venezula” is spelled incorrect–there goes par excellence out the window, but as you well know, it doesn’t take perfect spelling to do damage or good. Well accepted American literature goes both ways on that score.

Don

You must be getting made. Your spelling and grammar is starting to go.

I can also see that you have a little trouble with sarcasm.

But I can see you’re following the old adage if you can’t attack the argument, attack the person.

“I forgot, you like Venezuela better. Seniors in Caracas or seniors in Scottsdale.”

Bushwhack tactics.

You forgot what!!! How crass.

A consummate prevaricator, or have I forgotten that it is the things are done in the US.

Don

When each example that you do give is shown to be faulty, you simply say, “that’s not real socialism.” That is the typical response of socialist. It’s not the system that has failed but that the right people weren’t in charge. You could make it work where all others have failed.

Capitalism is not a social welfare system and it’s not a political system. It’s a system were individuals can buy and sell goods and services in the open marketplace. The result is great availability and choice in goods and services at lower prices. It has the result of creating jobs and opportunity for others.

But you make the choice who has a better life, seniors in Cuba or seniors in condos in Boca Raton. I forgot, you like Venezula better. Seniors in Caracas or seniors in Scottsdale.

As to benevolent capitalism in the US; take a look at low income and senior high rise housing. Anyone anticipating that in their retirement years? Well, its not the fault of capitalism, if those people had enough get up and go, they wouldn’t end up like that. But, to make sure that they do end up like that, benevolent capitalism unloads a lot of global outsourcing in the works.

In the past, we can see another dose of benevolent capitalism. The CCC camps. Hundreds of thousands of youn men, having no jobs to get during the Great Depression, were given the marvelous opportunity to get work in the rinky dink make work programs provided for by the government. And, later, things got much better. They got the opportunity to go into the meat grinder of WWII. Right on the heels of that, the next generations went into the Cold War meat grinder. For what. To fight the boogyman of phony socialism; to tear down the concocted straw man of bogus socialism. And now, the new boogyman, terrorism. What benevolence has benevolent capitalism provided in the past and is going to provide men and woment going through the succession of meat grinders? What benevolence did benvolent capitalism shower upon the Bonus Marchers; WWI veterans? Anyone have the audacity to say that the capitalist class doesn’t comes out smelling like a rose in each and every case.

It is easier to spend time bashing phony socialism straw man then to knuckle down and deal with the knitty gritty of what ails our society; like exercising government for the people, by the people and of the people. That is what students learn in civic classes. Just how do you propose to do that. Get off the socialism bashing kick and cut to the chase–maybe then you won’t have to worry about specter of socialism.

I gave a short sample of real socialism in my first comment. Does anyone want to have at it there. No, just leap from the American experience and on to a place such as Sweden. Good cop out, while playing the grand American game of, what Ceaser’s is Ceaser’s, whats mine is mine, while trumpeting, “WE THE PEOPLE.”

Don

Here’s also a great article on the myth of benevolent socialism in Sweden

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dieteman/dieteman33.html

Actually, socialism would probably work within each TOWN. Everyone has seen those cans saying “Please donate to Jennifer down the road she has leukemia.” Most towns are big enough to make socialism work.

Once socialism becomes “big” it turns into a big imposition that needs to be managed by an elite. It’s all downhill from there.

It must have got to me trying to pronounce, “pmccord.”
Actually the error was to test how thorough pmccord (I presume, he) did his reading, but you caught it first. The Article in question is stated on the Home page of:

http://socialismmarxdeleonforarealunion.org/index.html

As copied here:

FREEDOM OR NOT

The right that is being exercised by Real Union Of Social Science is given by the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States.

It is the right to amend the Constitution.

Many people choose to deny us that right.

If they are against the right to amend the Constitution then it is their duty to try to amend that provision out of it, not to attack us directly for exercising that right.

If these reactionaries, misguided or intentional, had their way, it would be the last time that right could be used.

By taking away our freedom they will have forfeited theirs.

The vision our forefathers had of a change for the better in the future will then be rejected.

The inheritors of their foresight will have discarded the means of progress and chosen stultification and decadence.

In their ignorance, they will have institutionalized a reactionary nation.

When they grow weary of that, they will not have the amendment clause to make a change.

Ignorance has degraded societies before. Two ignominious classics are the Soviet Union and the Third Reich.

The afterthought of the people in those countries was: How could that have happened. If they still don’t know why then reaction lurks in the shadows to this day.

This is precisely the problem the Real Union Of Social Science faces now in the US. Ignorance, the seed of reaction.

The signers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States did not risk life and security in expectation of the state of affairs our country is in today.

Here are excerpts of what they gave us:

“…it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to reflect their Safety and Happiness.” _Declaration of Independence

Article V

“…shall propose amendments to this Constitution…”

“…shall call a convention for proposing amendments…” _Constitution of the United States

The German and Russian workers and peasants, under the rule of the Soviet Union and the Third Reich, did not have this right but being ignorant of the class struggle it would not have mattered.

Today, in this country, we have one half of freedom. Its on the books but it is being nullified by the lack of the other half which is an understanding of the class struggle.

With education and knowledge the choice should be clear: Ether the tyranny of barbarianism or the civilization of modern democracy.

Real Union Of Social Science has chosen education and knowledge as the step to the civilization of modern democracy and from there to establish a real union embracing all workers.
_______________

This is it, I promise cease further circulatory argument with pmccord:

Happy New Year

Don

Article IV is about one state respecting the laws of another state. It also sets up a republican form of government in the states. It’s not even clear from your writing if your for or against Article IV. It’s not something on the minds of many people.

The 4th Amendment is a different kettle of fish. That Amendment prohibits unlawful search and siezure. It has more ramification for what you talking about, but even that is a stretch.

Dissent has more to do with the 1st Amendment which relates directly to political speech. However, it puts restriction on the government and not individuals.

Wow. What a mess. You seen to be the expert.

From the stream of your previous comments oozes forth an accusitory affront. You parry with guilt by association (like, “fellow traveler,” he was seen on the commuter train sitting next to communist). The “witch hunts” went on and on to the point were the country was becoming paralysed by it.

Anyone the government choosed were intimidated by it, except those whose activity was based on Article IV of the United States Consitution. I am one them that bases my actvity upon Article IV. So if you want to save the great country you better get busy campaigning for the repeal of Article IV than the feds can stamp out any dissent, totaly unrestricted. Do that instead of wasting your time marauding on this forum. Make a clean sweep.

This is it for me. There is enough for anyone visiting the forum sort out and I scarce time to waste on circulatory argument.

Don

Don

Be that as it may, let’s take these one at a time:

I never claimed that China was a pure socialist state. What I said was that every attempt at any kind of socialist state has resulted in the terror of the population. Always has. Always will because socialism cannot exist within a community of human beings. You must turn humans into machines in order for it to work. Every attempt has eventually tried to turn the population into machines—and they don’t like it. Wonder why?

The discussion isn’t about China or anything else other than the claim of the article that socialism will be the Christ like savior of mankind. My discussion is about the absurdity of that claim. Now it appears your only argument against that is to try to pin me as a deliberate marauder—that is, to deflect the assertion and to try to denigrate my questioning socialism as something other than honest. Again, typical ploy of someone who hasn’t a leg to stand on. I didn’t make the claim about the redeeming nature of socialism, I simply challenged it. The burden is on those who support socialism to prove their point, which they can’t. So, instead of trying to support the claim, you naturally do the only thing you can—attack, try to divert, try to obviate legitimate discussion.

And, please, don’t sully the word science by associating it with this discussion. For a theory to have scientific legitimacy there needs to be some evidence to support the theory. Socialism has not one shred of empirical evidence to support it. It’s a crackpot theory that hasn’t been able to provide any evidence of its validity. Marxist socialism has had over 150 years to produce something, anything to show its viability and has failed miserably. The only thing it has managed to do is become fashionable in some fringe circles where people want to appear as intellectuals and cool.

And what’s this about “alias moniker?” You know as well as I do that pmccord is my real name and Steve has given his—the administrator of this site put links to our websites. Stop obfuscating, it simply shows your lack of an argument.

And, finally: “If that is true, well I am here to tell you that peace may never come because to strive for peace is to fight against human nature.” Keep going, you’re finally getting it. But, of course, you’ll reject the obvious facts of human nature. You just keep jousting with those windmills, it’s good for the cardio system.

Both of you referred to human nature. I have talked to many people in person, face to face, not like communicating with someone on an internet forum with an alias moniker.

When mentioning the cause of war and eliminating that to end wars, the frequent response was, “Thats against human nature.” If that is true, well I am here to tell you that peace may never come because to strive for peace is to fight against human nature. As a former TV ad proclaimed, You can’t fool mother nature, right? War hawks, anyone? Strike your true colors.

Don

In scientific discourse a thing is not a fact until it is proven a fact. But you turn it upside down. No genuine socialist claims that socialism has existed at any time anywhere. But without proof you claim it existed without it being proven by fact.

Now I must spell it out to you what I meant by a salient fact. That is that socialism never existed in China because there is absolutely no evidence that it did.

During Mao’s time up to the present China has a Political state, yes. Wage labor, yes. Class divided society, yes. Private ownership of the means of production, no. For socialism to exist. Political state, no. Wage labor, no. Class divided society, no. Private ownership of the means of production, no.

The only case you have is that you are against what socialism means; every word does have a definition. That is your right but you do not have the right to misrepresent socialism. What is the reason you do it? Anyone who reads your comments knows straight away your are against socialism. Are you afraid that someone else come on the forum and become convinced? There must be some reason.

I am becoming convined that you are a deliberate marauder.

Don

And, what salient facts have you given? Give me a fact. Show me where socialism has worked. Don’t quote someone. Don’t condemn something else. Don’t give me some feel good mush. Show me historical fact where the socialist phislosophy has ever produced anything of lasting value. If you can’t then we simply have nothing else to talk about.

I didn’t ask you to agree with me. Furthermore I wouldn’t want you to agree with me, not with your attitude.

When I say I think you don’t give a rat’s behind, that is merely stating how you appear to me not a personal attack. You could tell me that I smell. That is your perogative but that doen’t mean that I give a rat’s behind if you did so.

I say again, when a person deliberately ignors salient facts then I don’t think that person give a rat’s behind.

A question. Does it bug you that I condem the Chinese communist despots for their inhuman exploitation of Chinese workers? Anyone who isn’t aware of that condition probably suffers from myopia.

But just a few facts, I know they get in the way. In the last 15 to 20 years China as allowed capitalism to flourish. You can own a business. They have a stock market, etc.

What’s the result. Today, 20% of the Chinese population has entered the middle class. In many ways they are on a par with our middle class. Doesn’t seem like much but that’s 360 million people. That’s larger than our entire population.

With that much momentum the genie is out of the bottle and I don’t think they’ll ever get it back in. Even in a country like China, you start giving people a little freedom and it’s amazing what happens.

Welcome to the digital age. It’s going to get tough with 1920s thinking. It’s like the union sign for dyslexic workers. “Workers Untie.”

I guess I’m to the point that I don’t see any point in continuing to discuss a fantasy. Don’t quote Marx–who cares about a theory that has proven a failure every time its been tried? Show me reality. The problem with that is you can’t. It doesn’t exist. There is no such thing as an example of real socialism and there never will be. Someone above said that to read history in the context of this discussion is useless. It’s useless because what you advocate is a historical and social impossibility and if one does read history–and actually understand what they read, they cannot accept the premise of socialism.

And I don’t bounce back and forth between experimental socialism and action socialism. There isn’t any such animal as action socialism. There is theory grounded in smoke and mirrors and the ultimate goal of subjecting people to the terror of the masses (al la the French Revolution or Maoist China), and there have been experiments in socialism that would make Frankenstein envious. That’s it.

It’s all fluff wrapped in pretty wrapping paper with Hell inside.

And, by the way, who are people like me? You haven’t the slightest idea what I think about others—other than the fact that I disagree with your economic philosophy. But, obviously, for you that demonizes me. It appears you are another of the enlightened class that advocates peace and tolerance for all—except those who disagree with you. Why is it those on the kooky left simply cannot deal with people as individuals but only by putting them into their preconceived boxes based on their philosophical agenda?

I am curious; are you aware that the Communist Party calls the shots in China. That if those bureueacratic despots, the ones that exert inhuman exploitation upon Chinese workers, were to call in the US bonds that they hold, the economy of the mighty US would flat on its back.

Again, I don’t think you give a rats behind; you most likely enjoy rattleing people who do care.

Don

A little incoherent; you switch back and forth between experimental socialism and action socialism. Actual socialism for your information has no political state but does have a vast majority of society belonging to the working class who get paid with wages according to the amount of socially necessary labor they perform.. Neither condition existed in Stalinist Russia or Moaist China. That can be proven beyond a shadow of doubt.

The despots in the Soviet Union and Maoist China were closer to captialism and not at all close to socialism because workers were paid in wages–Marx called it wage slavery.

You conviently ignor the excerpt from my original post comment. Frankly I don’t think you give a rat’s behind about the American or Chinese worker and most likely they have the same sentiment towards people like you.

“For the promise of a couple of fish heads and a bowl of rice a day, Mao roused the starving peasants to the glory of the Korean War human slaughterhouse. Now, for not much more, the Chinese workers submit to slaving away until they are driven into the ground, while the Chinese ruling class, once considered by the US to be tyrants behind the bamboo curtain, hell bent on spreading communism, serve as the new labor merchant to US capitalism.”

http://socialismmarxdeleonforarealunion.org/index.html

dandelionsalad, on December 30th, 2007 at 4:50 am

please don’t lump Chavez in with Stalin, et al.

Why not? Can’t you see the Chavez has already started with the propaganda? He’ll be a Stalin-lite in no time.

But here are some facts about the US that you probably aren’t aware of. In 1900, 90% of the population lived in poverty. Today that figure is less than 10%, and many in the 10% own their own homes and two cars. Average life expectancy in 1900 was 40 years old, today it’s almost 80.

Today, unemployment is under 5%. Socialistic countries like France and Germany have unemployment rates of 10% which are more structural than anything.

Our middle class is shrinking only because more and more people are exiting into the upper class.

Is there real opportunity? Today, around 80% of all millionaires are first generation. In other words, they did it on their own. We even have 2 million more millionaires than we did just 10 years ago. This happens not because they are getting a bigger slice of the pie but that the pie is rapidly expanding. In fact, more people do well today without any employees so that can’t be exploiting the workers they don’t have.

Here’s a quick question. If you had money to invest in a business, where would you invest. Here or in Venezula? Where do you think you would still own the investment in a year. One of the key concepts of capitalism is that you try to invest your money where it’s likely to grow and be safe.