By Timothy V. Gatto
Featured Writer
Dandelion Salad
liberalpro.blogspot.com
February 28, 2010
I’m watching the Tea-Partiers, Glenn Beck and Alex Jones with interest, you see me and people like me are exactly the ones they profess to hate, Liberal Progressives. It makes me chuckle when I hear their complaints. Allow me to bring up some of their major complaints so we are all on the same page here.
One of their chief complaints according to The New York Times article written by veteran investigative journalist David Barstow’s “Tea Party Lights Fuse for Rebellion on Right” is an all-powerful Federal Government that tramples on the people’s rights by spying on citizen’s, reading their e-mails and accessing their computers with no oversight. Well, gee folks, seems like this Liberal Progressive has been writing about this very same set of circumstances since the Patriot Acts were imposed by the Federal Government in their phony war on terrorism. It seems that the war is on us; the very citizen’s that the government is supposed to protect.
I hear the Republicans trying to co-opt the Tea Party movement by trying to ingratiate themselves at every opportunity. I just want to remind those in the Tea Party that these are the same people that brought you The Global War on Terrorism and have managed to obtain almost 800 military bases, a new Navy Fleet South America and have gotten us into two wars in the Mid-East and promulgating the largest Federal Jobs Program that was ever invented in the Free World, the defense budget of the United States of America.
The Tea Partiers and Glenn Beck decry Progressives and their concept of “communities”. WTF? Isn’t Glenn Beck a participating member of A.A.? This is probably the largest “community” of people in the United States. If he isn’t a participating member, than he is on a dry drunk like George Bush was and has a huge problem with narcissism. When Beck rants he constantly contradicts himself. Anyone that has been following this nation’s slide into fascism for any period of time can see what Beck is trying to explain, but the poor guy is over his head. Blaming Progressives, Socialists and Liberals is not going to render him any answers to explain what is happening to our representative form of government. The word Glenn is FASCISM. Once you get past all that right-wing clutter in your head you’ll probably see that true Progressives, Socialists and Liberals are all on the same page. We all want our liberty unimpeded by a security state that wants to control the people’s every movement.
When Beck and some Tea Partiers get on the “Hate Progressive’s” bandwagon, just take a moment and look at the people you are vilifying. We have no love for Barack Obama, he has turned his back on us since the day he was elected President. We want to scrap the Patriot Act, Get rid of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, get rid of these FEMA Camps that have been built. We want to get corporate influence out of Congress and hold the people who represent us accountable. We, like Ron Paul, want out of these illegal wars that aren’t being fought under Congressional approval. The President, under the War Powers Act is supposed to inform Congress of all developments every 90 days. So far the Executive Branch has not lived up to that obligation and that is a violation of the law.
Divide and conquer is the prime reason for the two corporate political parties that have existed far beyond their expiration date. The Republicans don’t represent the Tea Partiers as much as the Democrats don’t represent Progressives. It’s true, Conservatives and Progressives have their differences, but not on the all important issues of liberty, true representation in the Federal government, and end to these useless wars and the infringements of our rights under the Constitution and The Bill of Rights. We may disagree about entitlement programs, but then again I don’t see many Tea-Partiers giving back their military retirements, their Social Security checks (that they paid into) or their Medicare benefits. I know I won’t give any of my entitlements back; there is no doubt in my military mind.
The Tea-Partiers, as long as they are not co-opted by the far right will find common cause with Progressives if they only stop and read what we have been writing and speaking out about for the last 10 years. We all must stop listening to the Democrats and Republicans that stay up late at night to figure ways to divide us. We all want our government back in the hands of the people, not corporate sell-outs that take our hard earned tax money and give it to the parasites on Wall Street.
Any differences we have we can work out. Gun ownership is just as important to the Left as it is to the Right. It’s the Federal government that wants to take away our right to bear arms under the Constitution. When I listen to Ron Paul, I agree with much of what he says. The Fed should be abolished; I think we can all agree on that. Why pay them interest on our own money? True Progressives have been bitching about that for years. The Fed makes the bankers rich, some of the bankers aren’t even American citizens. What a travesty!
Yeah, I’m with you on getting our liberties back. I’m with Ron Paul when he says we should avoid these foreign entanglements. I’m with Alex Jones when he cautions us against a police state. I have my questions about 9/11. I have my fears about a security state. I don’t trust the two-party system. I fear hyper-inflation from printing fiat money. Hell, anyone with any sense fears these things! You Tea-Partiers didn’t invent these issues, we on the Left have been screaming for years. Maybe it’s time we started listening to each other.
timgatto@hotmail.com
Read Tim’s book “Complicity to Contempt” and watch for his new novel “Kimchee Days or Stoned-Cold Warriors” coming out March 15th.
see
Noam Chomsky on Ireland, Economics, Climate Change and Campaigning
Repeal Patriot Act and Restore Constitutional Rights to Americans by Dennis Kucinich
Tea Party: Everything You Know Is Wrong | OurFuture.org
from the archives:
To Tea Or Not To Tea by Joel S. Hirschhorn
Noam Chomsky: The Tea Party is a Sign of the Failure of the Left
Noam Chomsky: why far right must be challenged
Open the Debates Rally Speech Uncut + Ron Paul Press Conference featuring Ralph Nader
Filed under: Civil Rights, Dandelion Salad Featured Writers, Dandelion Salad Posts News Politics and-or Videos 2, Democrats, Independents or Third Party, Patriot Act, Politics, Republicans Tagged: | Gatto-Timothy V., Tea Party, Tea Party on Dandelion Salad, Third Party
[...] Tea-Parties and Progressives, Maybe We Should Listen to Each Other By Timothy V. Gatto [...]
[...] Tea-Parties and Progressives, Maybe We Should Listen to Each Other By Timothy V. Gatto [...]
[...] Tea-Parties and Progressives, Maybe We Should Listen to Each Other By Timothy V. Gatto [...]
[...] Tea-Parties and Progressives, Maybe We Should Listen to Each Other By Timothy V. Gatto [...]
[...] Tea-Parties and Progressives, Maybe We Should Listen to Each Other By Timothy V. Gatto [...]
[...] Tea-Parties and Progressives, Maybe We Should Listen to Each Other By Timothy V. Gatto [...]
[...] Tea-Parties and Progressives, Maybe We Should Listen to Each Other By Timothy V. Gatto [...]
[...] Tea-Parties and Progressives, Maybe We Should Listen to Each Other By Timothy V. Gatto [...]
[...] Tea-Parties and Progressives, Maybe We Should Listen to Each Other By Timothy V. Gatto [...]
[...] Tea-Parties and Progressives, Maybe We Should Listen to Each Other By Timothy V. Gatto [...]
[...] Tea-Parties and Progressives, Maybe We Should Listen to Each Other By Timothy V. Gatto [...]
[...] Tea-Parties and Progressives, Maybe We Should Listen to Each Other By Timothy V. Gatto [...]
Socialism is an economic system as is capitalism. Dictatorships and Democracies are political systems. Democratic Socialism is both.
[...] Tea-Parties and Progressives, Maybe We Should Listen to Each Other By Timothy V. Gatto [...]
I wish we could hear form someone in the TPM besides Dread…
Good stuff all!
Dread, ma’ man, are you out there?
I was looking for some constructive Big Picture talk here Dread!
Just listen and let me know: would you understand that Tim is saying your anger needs to be channeled differently? Allied with others in a tolerant and constructive way?
The economy broke under Bush, after years of complicity by both political parties. It broke because bankers have a lot of political influence in both parties and after years of running a shell game moving wealth around with your money, it all fell apart.
Would you understand that half of what your boy Bush gave to the bankers in TARP–half, Dread–would turn every car in America into an ethanol flex-fuel car that would start a whole new independent energy revolution and be a critical step in breaking dependence on foreign oil?
That viable fuel cell technologies have been born, and we want to see billions poured into such non-polluting technologies?
Instead, we die for oil and the oil companies have YOU by the short hairs, buddy, feel good?
Socialists would love to nationalize the oil companies so ALL the voters own energy, Dread, and the right decisions toward non-polluting new technologies are made by EVERYbody, not just the rich guys who own it now and don’t want to give up the wealth and power. This ringing in, Dread? A big government program scares you, here’s the thing, its YOURS…mine, too.
Free trade and private enterprise are just words, Dread, and they often mask exploitation, pollution, low wages, unemployment, monopolies, lobbyists and sanctioned corruption, we could do better, Dread.
Would you understand that when we Progressives promote things like pro-choice, we are true patriots because the right to privacy is sacred…a woman is in charge of her own body, its her freedom as an American, and if you want to share your beliefs on the ethical implications of what she can or can’t choose in carrying a pregnancy to term and how and when she chooses bringing a sacred new life into the world, share away, but don’t take her rights and freedoms , her right to run her life and do with her body as she pleases?
Would you understand that Bush and all of them have spent a trillion to invade other countries where hundreds of thousands of innocent people–including little innocent babies already born, Dread–were killed under a pile of American guns and bombs and we don’t think that had to happen?
We don’t think its about a handful of homicidal guys called ‘terrorists’, Dread…yeah there are nutjobs with bombs out there, what made them mad Dread? We don’t think Bush protected anything.
We think its about oil and drug money and power. Not just to get the oil and keep it, but to also keep the Chinese and Russians by the short hairs so they do what we say, we don’t support that attitude Dread. Call us peaceniks, guilty as charged..
We love the Constitution just like you do. We love freedom and opportunity just like you. We love the soldiers and respect them just like you.
Do you really think Liberals are the reason half your paycheck walks away in taxes and money given to health insurance companies? Nope, sorry Dread. Half the national wealth goes to a war machine that keeps a small group of people very rich, for real, buddy, look it up. Thats why your taxes are high. Dont forget to give the health insurers a bunch too, they bought enough Congreesmen to make sure you do.
If we want to tax the rich at a higher rate than you pay, flat tax or no, to lower yours, its not because we’re commies out to hate the rich and steal from them…it’s because we believe they owe more because they get the most benefits from our free country, they are the presumed leaders who own things and people’s livelihoods depend on their decisions, they owe it to society as their DUTY as leaders to pay more in taxes, they should embrace that duty, can you see that?
Can you understand Socialism is community…it’s all of us sharing the wealth and the resources, not to reward laziness, but to offer opportunity and show compassion, working together.
People are on public assistance because there aren’t enough jobs anymore for unskilled people to make a good living Dread, most people want to work and do well for themselves, including those ones speaking foreign languages with food stamps in front of you at the market, just where are they supposed to go?
We Socialists see miles of empty factories…millions of unemployed people …miles of crumbling houses in every city……and we say, ‘let’s as a community put our own people to work!’ Let them organize unions, you bet, fairness in the workplace is a sacred American right too, just ask those coal miners who died in that big strike a hundred years ago. Want heroes? They’ll work! Like the 40 hr week? Like disability paychecks? Like vacations and an 8 hr day? Thank unions, Dread.
Instead Bush’s rich friends took those jobs to other countries to get richer and you call it free trade, get real, Dread…think about it.
Would you have people who cant find a job with a living wage starve? Including the immigrants illegal or not? Want them dead in front of your house, Dread? Or is there a way to get them to work? What do you think? Want to see sweat shops again? They’d be here without unions and so-called leftists, Dread, like that part of the Dream, buddy?
The average CEO today makes 500% more adjusting for dollars than they did in 1965, the average employee has 40% LESS purchasing power, like that stat ,Dread?
Do you like knowing that Bush cut taxes for his richest friends by half a trillion dollars, do you think that ALL trickles down, Dread? Nope. Money follows money buddy, it doesn’t all come back to you…wrong.
Let’s get fancy: productivity increases have only benefited those at the top starting around Reagan, in other words your grandfather could buy a lot more than you can today with his pay back then, but you bet the owners and corporate types have never been better off. True fact, buddy, look around you. Who owns the government? What did the guys Rush and Hannity tell you to vote for do for you in the 8 yrs you were apologizing for them? Where did the jobs go? Where did the money go?
The Constitution. States Rights. Free to own a gun, own property, build a business, keep more of your own money in your pocket, live in a peaceful world where a ‘strong defense’ isn’t a ‘military empire’, free to share your moral beliefs, raise your family as you please, we’re all for it. We’ll listen.
Talk to us Dread, where are you at here?
If you can truly understand that we are ALL our Brother’s Keeper, take your tea bag and come on in…..
i just finished a great book called ”the new american tea party ”. this is the real tea party , not the corporate fake one . the guy sounds like Nader condemning the corporations . damn straight we should make alliances with them . right on tim . broad base coalitions with left and right is what the govt fears the most. they seek to divide and conquer.
I agree with this part:”…tea partiers, like my teenagers, just haven’t thought it all through. They know what they know, and don’t stop to consider that the world may be far more complex and nuanced than the limited bit of it they see. They’re noisy and whiny and can make big scenes in public; but beyond that, there’s no real power, no deeply-considered policy, no political clout, no victories worth noting, no vision of the common good, and not even a stable internal party structure to build on.
There is, in the end, no there there. And it’s time for the media to turn its attention to that fact, ask the hard questions about who these people are and where they want to take us, and tell the country the whole story — not just the parts that look good on TV, or that the professional PR handlers want them to see”
(from the link I went to…cant find it now)
But I dont agree that they havent affected policy decisions..I think that they got the “screaming about deficit” stuff going and gave Blue Dogs free reign to make it job one…and I dont see how one follows from the other…centrality of faith, (no separation of church and state)”protect life” (in the womb..not otherwise), “save traditional marriage”…”parental choice” (no matter how stupid a “choice” apparently, and the kids (and the country)suffer the consequences) in school, and total “free mkt ecomomy”…
I also think that the constitution is outdated and that we need a Convention to remain a Republic…but whether Texas and NYC can agree on a constitution is another matter entirely..as it is, people seem to just “re-interpret” it to fit what they want it to mean…when you look at the body of the original constitution , it is pretty much what Sara Robinson says…they dont really know what thyre asking for…they want to “level the playing field”, but, they actually dont want to…sure, lets get rid of inheritance, the standing military (we can have a well regulated militia or no), corporations and monopolies and start from square one..but I dont think that any of the “libertarians” ? would really support that…women are not full people, neither is anyone renting rather than owning property…Af Ams are 2/3 of a person, Indians cant own property or a gun, child labor laws, all govt regulation, etc….I still just cant see it…of course talking to someone…if I can find one that wont end up yelling at me…lol
I know, Lo, but the entire rant is..infuriating! I mean, even saying “Hitler pretty much..” anything is absurd.(I think he was “al the way” on just about everything he believed..I dont think Dread is “confused”, I think it is a intentional slight) And I run into this all the time…Tony does make some very good points but I dont think that the TPM people I have talked to would agree with him at all…no, I dont think they are all like Dread, but there are many of them that attend are with “family” institutes, “enterprise” institutes, and, strict Constitutionalism and gun ownership (which is a contradicton in terms…gun ownership rights are preserved in the second amendment, not the body of the constitution), are their reason d’ etre…that and a “flat tax” which is as non-progressive as it gets..
You seem to have had some discussions with some people who are TPM and Paul supporters who are not like this…please ask some of them to come post here (I may have missed them)..I would be thrilled to find an alternative to both parties..I just dont see it in TPM , as of yet…
As you can see, I got back on ds..; )
Thanks, KDelphi for posting here.
I am not saying that the left need to join the Tea Party! Not at all. Look at their platform and you can see we have no issues that we agree upon. http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010020822/tea-party-everything-you-know-wrong (link also listed at the end of the post)
My other post shouldve been below this one…sigh…I need a new pc…a friend of mine has a tiny laptop I can have…I might have to take her up on it…Ive tried Firefox, (it said I didnt have enough room, etc, but I installed it anyway) I just need a new pc..sorry for confusion..
[...] Tea-Parties and Progressives, Maybe We Should Listen to Each Other By Timothy V. Gatto [...]
Once again thank you for all the great articles that you share with us, I really love your site and read it on a daily basis.
As a Canadian that has been following what is happening in the US since 2006, I have to agree with Tim and his very good article.
Divide and conquer is the elite’s formula and it works like charm for them, it’s almost the same thing in every democracy that I know, Canada isn’t that different. Make the people believe that their views are so far appart that it’s of no use for them to take time to talk to one another because if we did we could realise that we have a lot in common and could work together to really change what is currently happening.
Living outside the United States, I consider myself to be somewhat of an outside observer and when I started to open my eyes to the world in 2006, it didn’t take long for me to realise that the two party system in Washington D.C is corrupt to the core. In public they say that they hate each other but in private they are sometimes very good friends, hell they are working for the same bunch, Wall Street, international bankers and corporations.
When I see Americans fighting one another on issues like health care, it makes me really sad. No the public health system isn’t perfect in Canada but at least everybody that needs medical help,no matter what their situation in life at that specific moment will get help.
Unite and demand universal health care, make the rich pay the big part of the bill for once! Get rid of private insurance, because one day, when you will need it the most, they could say that you are not covered and have to pay… classic fact in the U.S.
I have a hard time to understand those that are against health care for all, don’t you care at all that people are suffering in your own country? I have to say that I don’t care to pay taxes for an universial health care system, it even make me proud to know that I can help people that way.
What makes me mad when I pay my taxes is knowing that some of it goes to the war machine, we could use that money in different ways that would make us safer and healthier and maybe even happier, knowing that our money help people instead of killing them.
Peace & health care for all
Thanks, Mike! Unfortunately, the far right (as well as others) don’t understand how they could benefit from a single payer system, non-profit, Medicare for all, Socialized medicine program. It could be paid for by ending the wars and reducing the Pentagon’s budget and getting rid of the tax cuts on the extremely rich.
I had Brian Moore on my Blogtalk radio show last night (The Socialist Party Nominee for 2008) and we went into the subject of Nazi’s using the term “National Socialist”. We talked about many things including most of what I wrote in this article. You can get the podcast on the right side of my blog http://www.liberalpro.blogspot.com.
Thanks, Tim. Love your opening song, In the Red by The Molotovs (one of my all-time favorite bands). See: http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2008/08/06/the-molotov-in-the-red/
Here’s the direct link to Tim’s podcast:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/liberalpro/2010/03/01/liberalpro-sunday
Tim, I agree with your deeper point here.
However, I don’t think all liberals are our allies in this struggle. You are spitting radicalism, not merely progressive liberalism. Many liberals are deeply attached to their American privilege, and will not challenge the system of power at its foundation.
Likewise, conservatives like Dread are not our allies. Note that he basically supports Bush. He is no radical. Dread will only seriously oppose the system of power when a Democrat stooge is at the helm. If a Republican pushes through the same policies, he will make excuses. He will enthusiastically vote for a Republican branded corporatist in the next election.
This partisan apologist-type, whether left or right, is among the most effective tools the establishment has to divide us.
There are elements in the Tea Party that we must engage, but we must remember that a large contingent of the group is made up of not only Republican operatives, but privileged citizen-apologists like Dread.
egosyntonic, excellent point. Dread isn’t anti-war, nor anti MIC and that’s one of the main principles as outlined by Ron Paul, Ralph Nader, Cynthia Mckinney, Chuck Baldwin and Bob Barr. All the so-called “liberals” who supported then voted for Obama and still will not speak out against the escalation of war are also not getting it either. This isn’t for the more centrist, typical Democrat, typical Republican citizen but for those on the far right and far left who have lots to complain about and share the same complaints.
Oh, another point we agree on is ending NAFTA (perhaps for different reasons). We need to put behind the petty and not-so petty differences we have and join together on the core issues that effect us all.
Gaah! (Grrr) Blich, blaH!
It’s one thing if progressives care less about their cause than white-nationalist neo-Nazi gunmongering obese goons, Are we that desperate for activist energy that we’d align with insane illiterate cultists?
Extremist paranoids are always activist. The failure of progress is that progressives just don’t care enough.
These ghouls don’t/won’t (EVER) love you. And they mean you no good.
Teabirthers don’t even know what they stand for. Thee KKK were activists too. Besmirch not the great progressives with this palin/beckian ultra-rightist racist anti-progressive disease.
Please, Natureboy, leave the name calling out of your commentary. It interferes with what you are trying to say.
I deleted your last comment, it was extremely overboard.
This is an excellent article by Tim, and I and others have been talking about this for a long time.
Just think if we can get both those on the right and those on the left to “take it to the streets” at the same time demanding an end to the wars, demanding an end to the corporate welfare, demanding our civil liberties! We need each other. The divide and conquer is being used against all of us. This is important. The people have the power, if they so chose to use it.
It’s called broad based coalition building.
Some of the areas that both the right and left agree on:
End the Fed
End the wars; bring all our troops home (all military bases)
Repeal the Patriot Act
End the Military Commissions
End FISA
End ALL corporate bailouts forever!
End corporate personhood!
End domestic spying
End the CIA
Open up the presidential debates to all parties
Fair enough, but it’s an obvious ideological trap.
Palling around with Tea Party Terrorists is no way to progress:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/opinion/28rich.html?src=tp
Maddow did an exhaustive must-see expose on the ‘Tea Party Patriots’ last night.
As we know, the whole thing was staged.
It was a marketing simulacrum, concocted by corporate mercenary meddlers.
They borrowed tactics from the old new left to look like legitimate activism.
The problem is less the ‘wag the dog’ corporate manipulations, rather it’s the people who once again bought it, which includes those terrified of a black president, as well as progressives so longing for activism of any stripe that they’ll follow a fraud.
Unless your primary directive is dissenting the waste of war, then complaints about ‘big government’ are absurd.
True conservatives, true Jonesist/Paulists would be devoting ALL of their activism to first ending the vast waste of these wars, not following hired mercenaries of corporate anti-reform implants.
Instead the heartland is yet again suckered, as they were by Reagan’s evangelical cult of nuclear nuts, as they were by Botch’s war on terror, and as they now are by Beck’s bogus birthers.
Be not fooled people!
The right wing believes that the only function of the state is to protect property. There is no possibility of mutual understanding with them.
Thanks everyone for your comments.
Here’s an older post with Ron Paul, Ralph Nader, Cynthia McKinney, and Chuck Baldwin discussing the general principles that unite these 3rd Party candidates. Scroll down to the videos.
http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2008/09/13/open-the-debates-rally-speech-uncut-paul-press-conference-featuring-ralph-nader/
Basically it’s called broad based coalitions. It’s something that I’ve talked about quite frequently here.
Hi all!
Excellent article Tim! I have been thinking this for a long time and I agree, this is a great idea whose time has come.
A third-party made up of Libertarians (many of the tea partiers) and Social Progressives is an absolutely great idea.
Here’s why: Dread I hear what you’re saying but we need to define our terms…
What are termed Liberals in Washington are not always Progressives, and certainly GW taught us that Conservative doesn’t mean at all what the Reaganites and Ron Paul fans think it means…
What we need to see is that — with a few exceptions, like Ron Paul, Grayson, Saunders, Kucinich–most of Washington belongs to one party, the Corporate Party.
There is no essential difference. So when President Obama has ideas that infuriate you, Dread, what you’re seeing is a compassionate and intelligent and decent member of the Corporate Party trying to hold it all together -without- changing the system.
Its not about Lib v Cons, Repub v Dem, its about Insider v Outsider…its about the Govt, no matter your persuasion, is not for you anymore.
Washington is like the Court of Louis XVI, like the Court of the Czars…decisions are made that only benefit the wealthy, the people who make money on war and fear (not necessarily soldiers in the field, Dread, who love their country, how do vets benefits look to you these days Dread? See any real respect there for the guys dropped into a battlefield for oil ?)…by oil companies, by internationalists who will take the billion GW saved them in taxes and go build a factory in Indonesia with it, so you can take your unemployment check to WalMart and tell yourself how great it is that shoes are cheap!
Where’s the national sales tax replacing the income tax Dread? Repubs had six years to do that, lower the debt (they tripled it), increase states rights, shrink govt waste…take care of immigration (but their friends like cheap labor, Dread)…lower taxes for the working people (GW gave 600 bil back to the richest 1% Dread, your taxes go down during dubbyah?)….rebuild education. On and on.
Look at how all the states are broke, Dread, while the govt drops a trillion a year to fund a military empire.
Here’s the solution: people who love the Constitution, who believe in states rights, gun ownership, freedom, voting, and -less- government need to ally with those of us who believe in EFFECTIVE and GOOD govt!
Socialism isnt Soviet Communism, Dread, its only peole who believe that the govt is ALL of us…a community.
In our Progressive world, the govt is ALL of us.
Look at how Canada and parlimentary governments in Europe are run, you get the idea…they have plenty of freedom, but their taxes build hospitals and pay doctors and build schools, all political parties are heard, drug addicts and people with problems are taken care of, the elderly are taken care of, their corporations are expected to not throw people in the street when Wall St wants to see a layoff, they are expected to act responsibly, not pollute, not be the only ones to decide what politician they will buy in the next election or how much lobbyist money (official bribery is all that is) it will take to get something done.
Nowhere is perfect, but we could learn from their systems, Dread.
Just look at this health care reform madness, Dread, that says it all: both parties totally working for the rich Health and Pharma companies to own the system and get richer, period. Single payer is the only truly compassionate choice and we all know it…doctors will tell you, nurses will tell you .but does it get done?
Medicare is one of the most effective programs ever, Dread, ask any doctor.
Hate the govt? Did you go to a public school? WE”RE the govt Dread! Thats what Social Progressives believe my friend! There’s common ground here.
It’s time Progressives make friends with Libertarians and take this government back!
Thank you, Tony, very well stated.
If you really want the unvarnished truth, read my book. BTW, who is this suppossed “Mentor” in Hawaii?
Frank Marshall Davis
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=56859
So is Barack Obama a Fascist? Just trying to sort out the proper way to describe him. Because Fascism in Germany was “National Socialism”. Hitler pretty much believed in state owned business. And like many on the far Left, he really didn’t like Jews all that much (the Left calls them “neo-cons” to keep from being labeled as racist).
I think you misunderstand the Tea Party. Many of our members are very pro-military and pro defense. Not everyone is a Ron Paul fan. We pick and choose our battles, but our main one is to stop overimposing Govt.
We see that Mr Obama is breaking our country, and wonder at his motives. Certainly, his “mentor” in Hawaii told him that to reform a nation, you must first break that nation. In other words, you need to use the whip to attach the cart.
Sure, we could talk to the Left, but they don’t like to be challenged. Why would “O”, as well as Reid and Pelosi lock the doors with the cameras outside?
Since I assume you are on the Left yourself, I challenge you to try acting like a Conservative and actually engage Liberals in debate. They don’t much care for facts that do not agree with their talking points.
Perhaps we can talk after we beat them; at that point they will gain some perspective.
Why do you suppose we support Obama,Reid or Pelosi after they have sold us out? Didn’t you read what I wrote, or is your mind, like Glenn Becks’s cluttered with Republican propaganda? Bush and Obama, McConnell and DeMint, Pelosi and Reid, they are all forging towards the same goal. Don’t be distracted by labels, they are used for one purpose, to divide us.
Sure I read what you wrote, which is why I commented.
What I failed to impress upon you is that the ideals of the Left are not the same as that of a bulk of the Tea Party.
You say you are worried about a “police state” but what happened under Bush is minor compared to what is happening now. I had problems with Bush, he was a heck of a spender (not compared to Barry, of course) but he protected the country for 7 years.
Where I think the Left and Right agree on, and only among the Bush haters and the Paulians is in pretty loony beliefs that Bush and Israel promoted 9/11. This is just whacky. We need honest government, but we have to find those people in our respective parties. To simply wander in the wilderness as a 3rd party is pretty useless. Our goal is to reshape our Politicians via force of will (a high goal I will admit) or eject them from Congress, be they Republican OR Democrat.
If you want to know the truth, I would go to a Tea Party.
I have been” trying to buy this” for awhile…I keep running into stuff like “dread’s…”Hitler pretty much believed…” is a statement I dont have to keep reading to know what he thinks of socialists…
Unfortunately for Socialists, Hitler’s Nazi Party used the word Socialist in it. There’s nothing Socialist about Fascism, but many people do not understand this and therefore are confused.
Quote:
“True, it is a fixed idea with the French that the Rhine is their property, but to this arrogant demand the only reply worthy of the German nation is Arndt’s: “Give back Alsace and Lorraine”. For I am of the opinion, perhaps in contrast to many whose standpoint I share in other respects, that the reconquest of the German-speaking left bank of the Rhine is a matter of national honour, and that the Germanisation of a disloyal Holland and of Belgium is a political necessity for us. Shall we let the German nationality be completely suppressed in these countries, while the Slavs are rising ever more powerfully in the East?”
So who was this quote by? Was it Hitler? Notice the strong nationalism and aggressive stance toward Germany’s neighbors.
The answer? Frederich Engels, Karl Marx’ co-author.
Surely an anomaly you say? Let’s look at much of the basis for modern day Marxism, and the anti-semitism that remains even today in the words of Karl Marx himself:
What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Jewry, would be the self-emancipation of our time…. We recognize in Jewry, therefore, a general present-time-oriented anti-social element, an element which through historical development — to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed — has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily dissolve itself. In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Jewry”.
Notice two things common in Naziism (national socialism) and, as quoted, Marxism:
1. A dislike of what is considered “greed”; today we would say that “greed” is associated with capitalism.
2. “Emancipation of mankind from Jewry” (from the above Marx quote) and the Holocaust.
Enough said. Simply saying that Naziism wasn’t Socialism doesn’t make it so.
Wow Dread, that’s really compelling. What were those Nazis thinking working so closely with American capitalists in developing their punch-card machines??
Why did they want to purge communists when in fact their ideologies were exactly the same? So confusing.
And why was Hitler so confused about socialism? Sometimes embracing the word, sometimes arguing for the protection of private property, sometimes specifically denouncing “Marxian Socialism”? It’s almost as if the world is more complicated than simply lumping all your enemies together as one monolithic socialism/nazism/terrorism makes it seem… but that can’t be… the world is black and white, right? Of course it is.
Let’s extend your well thought out analogy to other areas. Basically, all nationalism boils down to Nazism, as does all anti-semitism! They’re all the same. I think we’ll be able to equate all systems as basically the same once we find anti-semitic and nationalist quotes among various system’s proponents. That will surely bring some clarity…
Is it only anti-semitism though? Are we stopping short of declaring all racism as basically Nazism?
Don’t become confused. Hitler was anti-communist, not anti-Socialist. If you read any George Orwell “1984″, “Animal Farm” you will realize that some who started out thinking Socialism is a good thing, soon realized that it is simply a transitional state to totalitarian Communism. You can look up the definitions of Socialism and Communism to see this. Look for the words “transitional”.
Was Hitler confused? No, as you can see, the fathers of Marxism held his views. I didn’t make up the quotes.
As for Socialism and Judaism, you can check out the views of most leading Socialists if you wish (I won’t do all the research for you) and notice a pretty definite trend. Just watch the U.N. sometime. We are not talking about the “little folk” here, we are talking about the leaders.
I am sorry that you cannot make the connections between the actual words of your heroes, but they cannot be ignored. Certainly you would not ignore them were they the views of a Republican leader would you?
Words have meaning. They are the foundation of their philosophy. It just happens that Marx was anti-semitic, and so was Hitler. Do you think that Hitler woke up one day and said, “I am going to be a new kind of Socialist?” He wasn’t, and didn’t.
Every time I have a conversation about Marxism, the conversation soon lapses into, “We need a new kind of Socialism that WORKS!” laughable.
Dread, there’s nothing confusing about your argument. It’s simply not very well thought out.
Socialism can refer to a lot of very different systems.
Capitalism can also refer to many different systems.
There are countless socialists who are not antisemitic. Unless, of course, you simply equate resistance to Israeli settler colonialism as anti-semitic. Then, once again, you can lump disparate groups together… and call them all Nazis to boot. Although, even there, you can find Zionist Socialists.
Jews have played an important part shaping the socialist critique, whether Marx would’ve approved or not.
George Washington was a slave owner. Does this mean that all Americans are slave owners?
If there is room for the American system to have evolved, how is it laughable that the socialist perspective continues to evolve?
Hitler did in fact brand himself as a new kind of socialist: a national socialist. He may in fact have thought this up upon waking up one day. The Nazi system included space for working with American capitalists, and the policy of Lebensraum was greatly influenced by the American policy of manifest destiny. Hitler cherry-picked ideas from across the political spectrum, he was not one and the same as Marx and made it a point to distinguish himself from that philosophy.
No one is excusing Marx’s anti-semitic remarks. However, none of his major works hinge on anti-semitism… whereas Hitler’s did. Similarly, we needn’t excuse Washington’s slave ownership (far more vile than any racist remark), and notice that his philosophy didn’t actually hinge on slavery (as some antebellum southern politicians).
Your analysis remains distorted and simplistic.
This is my final comment in response to you Dread. Obviously a comparison of communism and nazism is far from the spirit of the discussion of a right and left alliance, and it would be inappropriate for me to continue.
That said, I apologize for getting this far off-topic to everyone else.