Disturbing the Universe: Holocaust Denial, Revisionism, Religion, Censorship and War By Gary Corseri

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By Gary Corseri
Featured Writer
Dandelion Salad
July 23, 2009

“They will take evil and call it good.  They will take the lie and call it truth.” –Isaiah

“The unexamined life is not worth living.”  –Socrates

“War is always finally about betrayal.” –Chris Hedges

“A static universe isn’t physically self-consistent.  The sun can’t shine forever.” —James Peebles, Physics Professor Emeritus, Princeton University

“Do I dare
disturb the universe?
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.” –T.S. Eliot

On July 11th, author William Blum e-mailed me a Washington Post article about Ken Meyercord.  Fredrick Kunkle, a Post staff writer, described Meyercord as a 65-year old with a “high tech job at Freddie Mac, a local public-access cable television show … and a long history of writing about what he says are ‘myths’ of the Holocaust.”  Meyercord, the article continued, hoped to win “an at-large seat on the board of the Reston Citizens Association, a quasi-government body … for the community of 60,000, which is not officially a municipality.”  Reston is basically a D.C. suburb in Virginia.

I’d met Meyercord a few months before at a political celebration in downtown D.C.  The party’s sponsors were elated over Obama’s inauguration.  More cynical than most of those there, I’d latched onto Blum’s coat-tails for the invite—providing chauffeur services in my old van.  I met Medea Benjamin, Meyercord and his Palestinian wife, Samira, and a few other interesting people.  Nobody I met or overheard struck me as radical or dangerous.  Some—not those I’ve mentioned here—struck me as naïve for believing that one election would change the direction of our latter-day Empire.

A few months later, friend Blum and I were at Eduardo Galeano’s reading at Politics and Prose, also in D.C..  We ran into Meyercord there and we decided to get some Chinese food nearby.  Meyercord told me about his TV show then, but most of the conversation had more to do with Peking duck than with the sweet and sour business of contemporary, imperial politics.

Meyercord probably mentioned that he was running in the Reston election.  A Maryland resident, unable to vote in Virginia, absorbed in my personal problems then, all of that sailed over my head.  Conversation was mostly convivial; no one was trying to proselytize; and, in fact, nobody could have.  Blum is 75 and he’s seen it all; I’m 63 and I’ve seen enough.

Four days after reading the first article on Meyercord, I was e-mailed another, also by Fredrick Kunkle at the Post.  Under the headline, “Write-in Effort Blocks ‘Revisionist,” I learned: “A last-minute campaign to prevent a self-described Holocaust revisionist from serving on a civic body in Reston has succeeded with a landslide. … Ken Meyercord, who had been running unopposed for an at-large seat on the Reston Citizens Association’s 13-member volunteer board, received only 23 votes after his provocative views on Jews created a backlash.”  Debra Steppel, who organized the write-in campaign, called it a “fabulous result.”

Mr. Kunkle wrote that Meyercord was “gracious in conceding,” and that he had congratulated Ms. Steppel for her efforts, although he thought her “misinformed.”  Further, the article noted that Meyercord and his wife had lived in Reston since 1977, and that, in “writings and interviews,” he had expressed doubt that Nazi Germany had a “mission to annihilate European Jews, a plan known as the Final Solution.”  Meyercord had also denied that Nazis used gas chambers to murder Jews, and he had “expressed skepticism that the number of Holocaust victims reached 6 million.”

By now, my interest was more than piqued, and I asked Meyercord to send me some of his writing.  As a half-Jew with Zionists, anti-Zionists and the indifferent, ignorant and uniformed within my own extended family; as a fan of Paine and Thoreau, Martin Buber, Rilke and Hesse; as a man vitally interested in my world and human psychology, I wanted to know more about this tempest in a teapot in Reston and how it might relate to our confused, violent and pernicious modern macro world.

Perusing Meyercord’s work, I found him to be more apologetic than inflammatory.  In “In Search of a Holocaust Denier,” he writes, “What I would like to offer here is a rationale—a plea, really—for investigating all aspects of the holocaust story in an atmosphere free of rancor, intolerance, and intimidation.  I believe we can learn from history and that it will be a better world if we do.  Of course, to learn from history, we have to have an accurate understanding of what happened. …”

Meyercord describes how the “goose-stepping … siegheiling” Nazis endlessly portrayed by Hollywood and the other media provided little insight into “how a man like Hitler could have risen to power in one of the most sophisticated countries on earth.”  He deplores the fact that we have learned so little from the Nazi era, noting that the Foreign Minister of Israel [Avigdor Lieberman] has advocated the deportation of all Palestinians from Eretz [Greater] Israel.  Those who have challenged holocaust orthodoxy have found themselves exiled to an academic wilderness—a la Norman Finkelstein in the U.S.—or imprisoned—like David Irving in Austria!  And, in that same reasonable, almost apologetic mode, he asks, “Wouldn’t it be better to dispel the myths surrounding the holocaust now, while anti-Semitism is a negligible factor in American society, than at some future date when hard times lead desperate, angry Americans to look around for a scapegoat?”

So much for the overview of Meyercord’s approach.  He’s not some glib-tongued salesman for neo-Nazism.  His argumentation is tightly reasoned and far less fiery and provocative than, say, Limbaugh’s, O’Reilly’s, Hannity’s or Coulter’s.  He directs his readers (and directed me in a short phone interview of him) to two websites for further exploration of the issues: www.codoh.com and www.holocaustdenialvideos.com.

Meyercord describes himself as a “revisionist,” not a holocaust denier.  He notes: “What causes revisionists to be misrepresented and slandered by the believers is their denial of three constituent parts of the holocaust story:

1. That there was a plan to exterminate the Jews, aka, “The Final Solution.”

2. That gas chambers were used in the execution of that plan; and

3. That no less than six million Jews died as a result.

He offers his own refutations of the predominant “holocaust story” and directs us to others for more detail.

The question I have to ask now is, How is this relevant to our post-9/11 world?

It is relevant because past is prelude, and those who don’t learn the lessons of the past, as Santayana said … well, you know the rest.

It’s relevant because we would rather kill each other to defend the sanctity of our myths—religious, ideological, nationalistic/patriotic—than smash the idols of our perceptions—and misperceptions.

It’s relevant because a thoughtful man’s views of history or religious dogma is irrelevant to the performance of his duties and responsibilities as a citizen in a local civic organization.

It is relevant because every tin-pot dictator who appears on the scene—a Noriega, a Saddam Hussein—who loses the favor of the U.S. imperial regime; and every populist leader—an Ahmadinejead, a Hugo Chavez, a Fidel Castro—is inevitably compared to Hitler and threatened with regime change, or having his country “wiped off the map,” or has, in fact, been invaded.  Hitler has become the gold standard of evil—and that incubus colors every other form of evil.  We have personalized and incarnated evil, ignorance and brutality, and exonerated the institutions, the social forms and mechanisms of control, the psychologies and hysterias still very much with us today.

It is relevant because most Americans don’t know squat about Zionism or the role that Jewish nationalism played in the run-up to World War I, the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire, the disastrous Versailles treaty, the Balfour Declaration, etc.  (Meyercord, in fact, does not touch on any of this in his writing or in his interviews with me or with Fred Kunkle at the Post.)

It is relevant because whether 6 million Jews died or 1 million died—there still is no justification for the expropriation of another people’s land, resources, country.  (My mother taught me as a child, “Two wrongs don’t make a right.”)

Meyercord’s little dust-up in a D.C. suburb leaves us with three big ponderables:

1. A question of censorship

2. A moral question

3. The historical record

Ms. Steppel’s write-in campaign, and the voters of Reston, attempted to censor Meyercord’s words and beliefs.  They did not vote on the man’s competence, his willingness and ability to serve his local community.  They voted against his convictions, at which he had arrived after carefully examining the evidence, his life and the promptings of his conscience.  He lived for six months in Beirut, traveled in Israel, has had a long, fulfilling marriage to a Palestinian woman.  They raised two children who attended Reston’s public schools.  No doubt his unique experiences have enriched his perspective.  How does censorship and expurgation serve the public interest?  In our intertwined world, are we not all safer reaching out, trying to understand “the other”?

The moral question has too often reduced itself to “my suffering is better than your suffering.”  Suffering employed this way has little or nothing to do with morality, much to do with religious dogma.  It is suffering as justification—for outrageous reparations (against Germans, for example, no more guilty for World War I than Brits, the French, the Americans, the Russians).  It is suffering employed as the ultimate rationale for “man’s inhumanity to man,” “nature red in tooth and claw,” etc.  It is suffering memorialized as stasis (James Peebles here: “a static universe isn’t physically self-consistent).  It is suffering as rationalization for continuing the empires of destruction, wreaking havoc and revenge on more innocents, continuing the whole ghastly process (“They will take evil and call it good.  They will take the lie and call it the truth.”)

As for the historical record, it has always been a rather murky affair.  In my entire lifetime, God has never spoken to me once out of the Whirlwind, and I have been waiting for 46 years to find out what really happened on November 22, 1963.  Einstein said God doesn’t play dice with the Universe, and Bohr told Einstein to stop telling God what to do!  God may not play dice, but He/She/It certainly keeps His/Her/Its cards close to His/Her/Its chest/bosom/ineffable mystery.

Which means I’ve got to keep digging.  I have to keep disturbing the universe, checking my notes and revising my memes because in an expanding universe I don’t participate in cosmological events, but I can play my ant-like role in the evolution of awareness and consciousness.  “War is finally about betrayal,” as Hedges succinctly and profoundly writes, and I need to know why and how a species that has evolved so magnificently in its technology has, when it comes to interacting with other sentient beings, stymied itself in the Age of Iron and Sky Gods.  What gives?  What mystery here?

Six million victims or one innocent victim—what compels us to slaughter the innocents under Herod, to crucify Christ for our sins, to burn John Hus for impiety?  How shall we employ numbers to justify brutality?  Did the death of 20 million Russians in the Great Patriotic War justify the rape of 2 million German women by Russian troops when the Third Reich collapsed?  The ghost voices of tens of millions of native peoples of the Americas rise up and cry for justice.  What reparations can we pay them?  Millions of Africans, lost in the “Middle Passage” of the slave trips, sweated to death among the sugar canes of the Caribbean and the cotton and tobacco plantations of the New (old!) World—what memorials shall we build for them, what is their due?

How do we make equivalences?  I suffered, my family suffered, my people suffered … therefore, I have the right to. … What?  Wreak vengeance?  Upon the innocents?

Probably it is too much to hope for forgiveness—either given or gotten.  Humans are not, generally, constituted that way.  Except for a few saints we’ve usually managed to crucify upside down, boil in oil, or murder with a thousand cuts.

But we may, possibly, hope for clarity, breaking the cycle of wrong for wrong, by excavating the truths, the hidden causes, penetrating the whirlwind of confusion and setting the record straight–because in this melange of pulsating life called Earth, it’s looking more and more like we’d better all pull on the oars together or we’re all going down together.  And it looks more and more like Eugene Debs, who said so much well, said this one perfectly: “While there is one soul in prison, I am not free.”

What else but to know the true history of the human mind and heart—to extricate ourselves, to beam the searchlights in terra incognita, confront our demons, shake our wings loose from the chrysalis of so much ignorance, blood-lust, power-lusting, arrogance, fear, greed and stupidity?

Gary Corseri has published his work at hundreds of venues, including Dandelion Salad, Thomas Paine’s Corner, CounterPunch, The New York Times, Village Voice and Dissident Voice.  He has performed his work at the Carter Presidential Library and Museum and his dramas have been performed on Atlanta-PBS and elsewhere.  He has taught in prisons and universities.  His books include: Holy Grail, Holy Grail; A Fine Excess; and Manifestations (edited). He can be reached at gary_corseri@comcast.net.

see also

In Search of a Holocaust Denier by Ken Meyercord

see

Manufacturing Consent (1992) (starting about 2 hours or so into the film)

War Without Purpose by Chris Hedges

America’s Wars – How Serial War Became the American Way of Life By David Bromwich

Exclusive: The Warsaw Ghetto and Gaza Strip by Gary Sudborough

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a Washington ODE by William Blum

Amira Hass Discusses Her Mother’s Concentration Camp Diary

Holocaust Survivor Elie Wiesel After Touring Concentration Camp

Obama & Merkel visit Buchenwald concentration camp: We will do everything we can so that something like this never happens again

from the archives:

Auschwitz: The Final Solution (must-see videos)

62 thoughts on “Disturbing the Universe: Holocaust Denial, Revisionism, Religion, Censorship and War By Gary Corseri

  1. How sad that this space allows Holocaust deniers to posit their mendacious fabrications of history for vulnerable minds to absorb. I conducted three years of daily Holocaust research for my book, “Jacob’s Courage.” I placed dozens of Internet sites on this Blog http://jacobscourage.wordpress.com/.

    Yes, 6 million innocent Jewish men, women and children were murdered by Nazi Germany (most by gas). The FACTS are in captured German war records. Comprehend this – the data comes not from Holocaust survivors. It is not anecdotal information that we claim as historical fact. The facts come directly from the SS, who were in charge of Nazi death camps. They proudly proclaim that they murdered 6 million Jews, whom they considered “an inferior race.” I would be delighted to share this, but all you need to do is visit http://jacobscourage.wordpress.com/ and the links will be there for you. Pictures of gas chambers and Nazi confirmation of millions of Jewish deaths are included.

    More than my information consider this: 98% of all PhD historians stake their career on the fact that 6 million Jews were murdered by Nazi Germany. Is it possible that 98% of professional historians are wrong? Of course not! Only an anti-Semite would challenge facts that are taught in classrooms throughout the world. One might as well deny that gravity exists.

    My ancestors were murdered in Nazi concentration camps. This is as much a fact as the sun shining every day. Those above who deny this can kiss my rear end, because I have three years worth of proof. Of course, the people here who deny the Holocaust have no post-graduate degrees in History, no dissertations of these papers on the Holocaust and no one to support them, except Neo-Nazis. If you want to hate Jews, that fine with me. Just stop lying about the Holocaust. When 98% of all PhD historians agree that 6 million innocent Jews were murdered, and you don’t even have a master’s degree in European History, you claim is absurd and irrelevant. You can hate Jews to your heart’s content. But, you cannot change known history.

    You Jew-haters want to know why people hate Jews. But, you already know, because it is deep in your heart. You are jealous. Jews in every continent and culture have accomplished fantastic feats. From science and technology to teaching and business, Jews are successful. Why are they successful? Because they complete graduate school. They become physicians, researchers, lawyers, politicians and teachers. Jews are culturally bound to succeed, in every way, in every society. There is no aspect of science, technology, higher education or societal accomplishment in which a Jew has not received a Nobel Prize. Those who achieve post-graduate degrees often enjoy a lifestyle desired by others. Yes, we have big homes, nice cars and fat bank accounts. Our children enjoy opportunities that others dream of. Yet, if you were to obtain the same professional degrees, apply yourself with the same enthusiasm and commitment, maybe you and your children could enjoy the same lifestyle. But until you become an accomplished professional, you will forever sit on the sidelines of life, bitching about “those Jews who have more than we do.”

      • I find it offensive, and not because my ancestors were jewish.

        The fact that Meyercord would be so activist about this now, gas chambers or not, indicates that he’s a sick, anti-semitic white-nationalist slime.

        Show me the evidence for the Exodus in the bible, compile that with the fact that so many christians and jews take that to be gospel—where’s his ‘dissent’ there? Show me the exact evidence that millions were killed in the middle-passage, or hundreds of thousands in the Trail of Tears, or the Armenian Genocide. Why isn’t he debating these things?? Answer: Because he, like his nazi brethren, is a sick racist obsessed with jews, and aligns himself with the centuries of white-nationalists obsessed with jews.

        Yet he now, in the midst of all kinds of other atrocities by his own nation, chooses to distract attention from his own country’s war-crimes with this pedantic theorem of whether the Jews were mass-murdered by shooting or by starvation or disease or gas chambers or any combination of the above.

        Whether the Nazis intended to kill them all off or just happened to exterminate them in front of pits by machine-guns in the course of combat over the borders of the ‘paterland’, it’s indicative of the exact same deranged sickness of the nazis themselves.

        And yes, Rocket, we have the human right of free speech (and don’t tell me the ‘experiment’ of the USA gives me this right, I can speak, therefore I am), which is exactly why I’m gonna stick my verbal pencil in Meyercord’s eye, and twirl it relentlessly, as all should, till I can see daylight out the other end, and till this racist, sick-minded white-nationalist mommy’s-basement-dwelling anti-semitic wrong-wing conspiracist amerigoon maniac is made to see the sickness of his mind, or until he’s history, whichever comes first.

        Free speech is fine, but some people need to just get a brain-dead job and stop fanaticizing out-loud because the mechanics of their brains are deranged and destructive, or they should proverbially be put out of our misery. We don’t have to listen, and re-publish for endless replies, the rantings of genuine paranoid deranged, racist, sociopathic obsessive lunatics.

        I am offended that we are even discussing Meyercord and his insanity. Deal with the matters at hand. There is no question that the nazis were obsessed with extermination of others.

        Leave it at that, learn from that, have a modicum of respect for the victims of violent mass-deaths of the past, and deal with the exterminations at hand that we can address, and for which we ourselves are responsible.

        Meyorcord needs to proverbially die now, so we don’t have to verbally kill him.

  2. Nature boy — i agree with 100 per cent about man being a pathogen on this planet. i would add –a pathogen with a free will . that same free will can if chosen to .. turn in the other direction . its this whole ayn rand virtue of selfishness gig that bugs me .

    The Christophobia i mentioned i view as the blockage to someone trying to say and prove by their life that they have really changed for the better and have been freed from selfishness. the life lived out is the proof, ergo , the Christophobia is an illusurary pretext for denial . hence it falls into the category of unreason . reason stand on the side of the life changed that is the anomaly of the human condition in all its evil .

    why do people so causally dismiss the anomaly ? this has always intrigued me .

  3. i would like to also add that NOBODY on this issue has addressed the historical fact that given the nature of genocide thru human history that that in and of itself is proof positive that man /s nature is by nature not good .

    to posit a different position , isnt that in and of itself a form of revising history. listen to the optimists who deny the evil nature of man in the face of it all. then those of us who stand up and say ” man is by nature not good , and cannot save himself , but there needs to be some other thing discussed outside of man to save man , we get scoffed at.

    those who scoff at us , are they not ignoring the root of the problem ? are they not dealing with symptoms and not the illness, shadows and not the substance ?

    we who state categorically that which is obvious to anyone who knows history that man cannot save himself but needs an outside source , and then we suggest a possible source that has been proven time and time again to make man a better creature are shouted down by the christophobic revisionists of the darkness of human history . is there something wrong with this picture.?

    • Stick with science, by all definitions of disease, ‘man’ is a ‘pathogen on the planet’ (Dr. Helen Caldicott).

      Those who see humanity as fundamentally good imply a comparison. By what measure is man good? All life is good, yet man destroys life like no other organism since certain plants started excreting oxygen, destroying most life on earth (except for those who evolved to breath it).

      HuManity is a disbalanced species, brazen in its blatant pursuit of selfrighteous pathology. All the intelligence and craftiness is biologically dominated by the bad seeds among us who use it to kill.

      You cannot count on proper education to cure the pathogen of man. Man is a monstrosity, an unknown psychotic quantity, a devious, deviant, selfish disease.

      The good among us, the altruistic, the compassionate, the sensitive, the intelligent are the far and few, the rare exception. The bulk of them are red-state miscreant birthers who love lou dobbs.

      May they all meet their miserable maker, who made them evil to their cores. But by all means, redefine your maker by some biblical myth, and hope he steps in to fix things. The end is nigh… guess you’ll pray. Good luck in the promised land, if you like compost.

    • ‘Christophobic’ or not, I think you’ll have a hell of a time showing some outside source that makes man better ‘time and again’.

  4. cwein , you talk about holocaust denyers spreading poison . i dont agree , even though i believe in the holocaust , and many other holocausts , and the fallen nature of man , the reason i dont agree with you is that you are not allowing for dissent . you need to read ”on liberty ” by j.s. mill and why the opinion of one is so vital .Mill states that it must be heard above all.

    where is dissent in public schools on this issue , or for that matter any issue ? the poison lies in suppressing freedom of speech . that is the Orwellian nightmare we are in .

    have we forgotten the famous line by Voltaire ” i disagree with what you say , but will fight to the death for your right to say it ”.

    • Just because racists and hate mongers are ‘free’ to spread poison, doesn’t mean they’re not spreading poison.

  5. Sometimes authors use a novel or screenplay to support political or social beliefs; or to cry out for morality and ethical principles. This is no more clearly evident than with Holocaust books and films. Whenever we stand up to those who deny or minimize the Holocaust, or to those who support genocide we send a critical message to the world.

    We live in an age of vulnerability. Holocaust deniers ply their mendacious poison everywhere, especially with young people on the Internet. We know from captured German war records that millions of innocent Jews (and others) were systematically exterminated by Nazi Germany – most in gas chambers. Holocaust books and films help to tell the true story of the Shoah, combating anti-Semitic historical revision. And, they protect future generations from making the same mistakes.

    More than 98% of PhD historians (not just Jewish historians, who comprise about 3% of this group) stake their career on the veracity of Holocaust facts, including the FACT that about 6 million Jews were systematically murdered. Most of the PROOF comes not from anecdotal information, but from captured German government records. The German government proudly claimed that they murdered millions of Jews, in an effort to rid the world of what they suggested was an inferior gene pool. Would 98% of historians stake thier career on anything less than a known FACT? Why would anyone who is not a historian question this? What would motivate such a person to question it?

    I wrote “Jacob’s Courage” to promote Holocaust education. This coming of age love story presents accurate scenes and situations of Jews in ghettos and concentration camps, with particular attention to Theresienstadt and Auschwitz. It examines a constellation of emotions during a time of incomprehensible brutality. A world that continues to allow genocide requires such ethical reminders and remediation.

    Many authors feel compelled to use their talent to promote moral causes. Holocaust books and movies carry that message globally, in an age when the world needs to learn that genocide is unacceptable. Such authors attempt to show the world that religious, racial, ethnic and gender persecution is wrong; and that tolerance is our progeny’s only hope.

    Charles Weinblatt
    Author, “Jacob’s Courage”

    • Thanks for your comment, Charles. I did edit out the 2 other websites of your’s at the end of the comment as I prefer not to advertise anything (with few exceptions) on this blog.

  6. Pingback: Naomi Wolf: I had a vision of Jesus (2006) « Dandelion Salad

  7. when we look at all of mans inhumanity to man thru history of genocide , slavery , you name it . how can one in the face of all of this state that man is good by nature ? and then go even further into stating that man can save himself by some kind of ideology . its an untenable position intellectually . isnt this at the root of this debate? and if it is , then one can ask , well if man cant save himself then who can save man ?

  8. paolosilv.wordpress.

    I have put together all my research on the Holocaust of the Jews. Latest figures are: 6.2 million Jews, according to Wolfgang Benz, German Historian.

    The total number of peoples included in the Holocaust is over 11 million, given the large numbers of Poles Ukrainians, Russians, Roma and Serbs who also are included in the larger term Holocaust.

    I prefer to use the term, “Shoah”, to refer to the Jewish Holocaust. 7-27-09

  9. When people say they want to talk about the holocaust, i say ”which one”? let us not forget mark twain’s famous saying ”the damned human race”.

  10. Saying the holocaust was “the greatest crime in history” says nothing about gas chambers. I was referring to Eisenhower’s, Churchill’s, DeGaulle’s memoires of the war years. If you think Churchill said something about gas chambers, find a quote.

    I think Churchill might get an argument from Native Americans, Armenians, Cambodians, Rwandans, et al. Had he said “one of the greatest crimes”, I would agree with him.

    As for DeGualle, since when do you have to have liberated a concentration camp to know there were gas chambers? That would disqualify 99.99999% of us.

  11. Nature boy Boy are you confused you have gone so far left you think you are right when you put down real American patriots.These very people are the ones that gave your uninformed arrogant self the RIGHT to sit in comfort and bitch about about the world and how super smart you are,,,,,NOT..the Jews did not even get what they really deserved for their crimes .They the ZIONIST JEWS that is..Anyone who follows the Talmud and Torah deserve only what they get Hate for that is all it is HATE,RACISTS HATE.Jews first kill the Goy oh yes now that is real nice way to make friends .How can you defend this evil .You seem to think you are smart when you are delusional at best.The real victims of the holocaust everyone who has to put up with all the crap from these perpetual complaining self serving so called victims.Grow some balls you people get over it like every other type of people who have suffered in war.You dont hear anyone else endless crap about being the poor JEW. Give it a rest stop hiding your crimes behind the handy dandy ANTISEMITIC CARD. That is so worn out but it does serve the purpose of MILKING the victim sympathy card for all its worth.Sit in your chair and fool yourself into thinking you are in the right,,,,,,,,WRONG AGAIN NO CIGAR…Do you not understand WHY JEWS are hated everywhere driven OUT of over 100 countries but it always ALWAYS someone else to blame and NEVER EVER the poor oppressed JEW. PLEASE just think REAL HARD,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,oh no cant do that denial is what JEWS DO BEST ALONG WITH LIES LIES LIES,,,,,,,,,TRUTH HURTS IM SORRY BUT THE FACTS SPEAK LOUDER THEN JEWISH PROPAGANDA PERIOD END OF STORY,,,,,,,,

    • Northstar, there is apparently something we can agree on: The victims of Nazi terror and their descendants do not have the right to ‘hide’ behind the holocaust in order to justify the hostile persecution of anyone else.

      People have the ‘right’ to physically defend themselves if personally physically attacked. But are you sure the victims of the nazis ‘deserved’ their fate because they were killing ‘the goy’? Were the Gypsies and gays who perished also killing the goy?

      No I do not understand why jews are ‘hated everywhere’ is it because of some ethnic corruption in their genes? Many different reasons have been given by the people who hate jews, certainly they’ve been hating jews since long before the nazis or israelis, and jews as a group hadn’t been particularly violent since biblical times.

      If you patriotically believed in ‘Rights’, you would believe in ‘innocent until proven guilty’ instead of indicting whole perceived groups and holding them collectively responsible for the alleged crimes of the few.

      And which ‘patriots’ were you referring to?

  12. It ‘s posted that Churchill and DeGaulle didn’t write about gas chambers. But Degaulle never liberated a death camp, and Churchill wrote voluminously; have you checked every word he wrote? I had read a quote where he wrote that the Holocaust ‘was the greatest crime in history’. I also have a quote by Anthony Eden 1942 in the House of Commons informing the public about the Holocaust.

  13. “Fascinating Fascism” wrote Susan Sontag, Jewish American Author. Why is it still so fascinating? Is there anything on earth duller than “Triumph and Will” or a Hitler speech? Is there any stranger than how ordinary bougeois people believed in the Hitlerite philosophy of Racial domination and mass murder?

    The subject of the war seems to attract three types; those interested in the actual warfare; those who admire Hitler, and those who want to study the Holocaust.

    I dare say few people find Mussolini fascinating.

    • People love violence, and they love gangsters in general.

      Women lined up to bear hitler’s spawn. When women swoon, the public croons. How else can we explain Elvis?

      We’re fascinated with the man the women want, and the women want the worst man they can find, often enough. Violent men are somehow sexy, perhaps because they denote dominance.

      Oddly enough, Hitler was allegedly a vegetarian. (Now that’s fascinating, if you think about it…).

    • Following the ‘sovereign’ money paper trail, it seems there is a war between the Capitalist privately owned banking system and government-issue sovereign money, which is issued interest-free.

      Private Capitalists throughout the world capture individuals, nations and countries in debt mortgages, lending more money just to pay interest on original loans.

      The American colonies used sovereign money, stopped by the British Banking Act in the 1770s.

      The Guernsey Islanders used it successfully after the Napoleonic wars in 1815.

      Lincoln’s Greenback Dollar was sovereign – he refused to borrow private bank money at 39% for the Civil war.

      Kennedy’s Silver Certificate was also sovereign, and issued by the government.

      Both Lincoln and Kennedy were assassinate and almost immediately their sovereign currency taken out of circulation.

      The one outstanding use of sovereign money was Germany’s sovereign Mark issued in 1933 when the country simply could not borrow money nor plunder colonies.

      In four years Germany was the most powerful economy in Europe, before any rearmament.

      I do not think this issue is about Jews. It is about the power of money used properly: To employ, empower and educate the people not put them into the slavery of debt mortgage..

      I do not think the global banking system wants anyone to take too close a look at sovereign currency, how it works and the power it has to free people.

      I believe that ‘The Holocaust’ is simply PR made up to (almost successfully) demonize a person and a country that showed the proper use of sovereign money.

      The mess the world is in today is a direct cause of private banking manipulation of money markets and its aim is global debt mortgage.

  14. Why is the Jewish death total fiction or not the only the one and only holocaust to be NEVER FORGOT.Why is the Jewish version of truth the only acceptable truth and any person dare question them with verifiable accurate proof is soon branded Antisemitic .Why are people put in JAIL for this horrible crime,why are they so touchy about open mass media discussions on this subject .It is ALL A BIG FAT LIE.And a lie SO BIG that it needs constant attention to keep the HOLOCAUST MYTH ALIVE.An awake GERMANY that fought for their way of life was and is to this day vilified by the Jewish controlled media.You will never hear of the over one million GERMAN soldiers young and old starved to death after the war in the DEF camps or disarmed enemy forces.Why were they reclassified as DEF because then these people would not be protected under the GENEVA convention.And so they were dealt with by the avengers.Pretty cool way to exact revenge on a defeated foe.Well just keep watering the the BIG BLACK HOLOCAUST PLANT with constant propaganda in the Jewish media ,keep the little shoe display built on a small wooden hill to make it look BIGGER in the holocaust memorial well stocked with used footwear from LIVING children,keep the endless flow of ILLEGAL ALIENS like our president is disarm an AWAKE AMERICA and you should be OK. The trouble is that little problem of disarming WHITE PATRIOTIC AMERICANS,,,,,,,We AMERICANS White Black or Red or Brown REAL AMERICANS not repeat NOT disloyal international self serving ISRAEL first will send those TRAITORS back to CHINA. Iam sure this is far too much TRUTH for your blog to deal with so I guess you will just PROVE my point.Have a bagel………..

  15. Mika, you will be welcome back once you know how to write without name calling. Write out what you want to say then go back and edit out the name calling. It can be therapeutic for some people.

    There are no First Amendment guarantees on personal blogs. Think of it as going to someone’s house. How long would you be allowed to stay at someone’s house before they asked you to leave after you called them names?

    The First Amendment issue is whether there can be a discussion about the Holocaust with differing points of view. That is the topic of this post. Please keep on the topic.

  16. I neglected to mention in my last post that, in addition to Primo Levy and Elie Weisel, neither Eisenhower, Churchill, nor DeGaulle mentions gas chambers in their autobiographicl histories of World War II. I suspect they knew it was hooey and didn’t want to be seen by posterity as either fools or liars. Or may be they were holocaust deniers before it was cool.

  17. remember natureboy it is usually the people who write history that deny war crimes. it is the revisionists that expose them and bring them to light. there are many examples of this in history.

  18. Natureboy — i would like to challenge your premise of revisionism being a negative and deceptive thing . Howard Zinn’s ”the peoples history of the united states” is considered revisionistic. so is the work of Noam Chomsky, and Gore Vidal’s book on Lincoln, and why the civil war was not about slavery but consolidation of power.

    Zinn speaks at the progressive 100th anniversary on the 3 wars that very few question in american history, but should:
    1.the revolutionary war
    2.the civil war
    3.WW2
    it is on youtube.

    Neitzche said ” there are no such things as facts in history but only interpretation . ” that is the rub . and that is why constant questioning is so vital . that is why dissent for dissent sake is all important .

    you speak of thinking for yourself against the herd. of course in principle i agree 100 per cent . but we as individuals can easily deceive ourselves. it does not take much .

      • No need to challenge me on that one Rocket!

        But I’ve met and known survivors, and one who escaped a camp, it did happen, they had no reason to lie. My own grandmother saw the hate first-hand. In this case the revisionists and deniers are perpetuating age-old conspiracy-myths about jews.

        Of course they can say what they want, but it’s just more profound disrespect of the victims already so debased and destroyed.

        Haven’t seen three holy-wars yet, but I’m a fan. I think I mentioned before, the questions about Lincoln, the logic of the civil war, its ultimate purpose at what expense remain. Canada needed no such Revolutionary war, and these slave-holding aristocrats got to then take over the continent with the brits and indians out of the way. WW2 was completely insane all the way around, and certainly helped fix what FDR and his WPA projects couldn’t. I am no proponent of america’s wars.

        But we can’t even get it straight in this country that Saddam didn’t knock down the towers and that the iraq invasion/occupation was a war-crime in violation of the Geneva convention and UN charter… let’s not argue about how many millions more or less were persecuted & killed by Nazis or what their intentions truly were, or whether all those empty Zyklon-B canisters found were just being used to de-louse prisoners or gas them (same difference with cyanide), and instead deal with our own war-criminal atrocities right here and now.

        Meyercord’s obsession with disproving the gas chambers at the expense of dealing with the war-crimes his own red-state supported is clearly off-balance, and indicates the weird, dark world in which anti-semitic conspiracy theorists have always dwelled. There’s a reason he was allegedly kicked out off UFPJ forums, he is not seeking the truth but further distortions.

        If people have a problem with Zionism, I’m down with that, but denying or revising the millions murdered and tortured by the Nazis is absurd, and pointless, and hateful. The victims weren’t Israelis and were in no way responsible for the fate that befell them.

        • Natureboy, I have not only met Holocaust survivors but I worked with one in 1983 in Kansas City named Felix Dopple, so there is no doubt that there was a Holocaust aimed primarily at Jews and as we know also at the gypsies, gays, retarded people, the Christian radicals, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, so on and so forth. My main point in revisionism in general is that it’s a 2-edged sword but a necessary one.

          A good example would be most of us were raised thinking that the Spanish explorers were good guys, only to find out much later that through revisionism that some of them were amoral genocidal maniacs, (Cortez is a perfect example). And yet we didn’t learn that in the classrooms. My point being is that it can’t hurt to take another look, a close look at Nazi Germany and the Holocaust.

          Personally, I believe that Hitler and the Nazis were totally evil, on the other hand, Winston Churchill in my opinion was a fascist and propagandistic manipulator and his reasons for being against Hitler was not to stop evil but to stop his competition.

          So what I think we need to do is to hear out all revisionists for as John Stuart Mills says in his book on liberty that the dissenting voice must be heard above all for the possible good of all if that voice is wrong than nothing has been lost.

        • Indeed.

          And indeed we’ve heard them out regarding the nazis, and I think we’ve heard more than enough.

          We need to now hear more about what they do agree with about the holocaust than what they deny, or ‘revise’. Any account, or count of atrocities is enough to know.

          Now these same white nationalists need to come clean about their own crimes against the ‘gooks’ the ‘hadji’ and the others they willfully committed violence against via their own complicity and distortions.

          They need to stop refuting the particulars of what all must agree was a genocide (gas or no gas, we know enough) and deal with the current genocide these white nationalists, especially religious fundamentalist christian zionists crave to create in the name of their deranged dispensations. These are brethren of the people who brought you the Zionist neocons and the Iraq war, and who still want to bomb, bomb, bomb.

          White nationalists can’t decide if they’re pro-jew because the jews hold the key to their bizarre biblical salvation, a tyranny we’ve all suffered under since their raygun and his nuclear end-times theocracy, or if jews are the original sin, dining on christians, manufacturing holocausts for manipulative world dominion, genetically predisposed to being the shadow bankers pulling all the strings as their bizarre alex jones-town, bircher/lew rockwellian ultra-rightist texan secessionist ‘patriots’ would have us believe.

          Let’s stop giving these sick in the brain white nationalists any more air-time or credence than they already indoctrinate their hateful far-flung marginal flock into believing.

          Genuinely intelligent, intellectual analysis of history proposing alternatives to the party-line are one thing, but this whole southern, western bunker-dwelling, gun-maniac neo-nazi cult of dwindling ultra-rightist crackers has got to fade away fast (the sooner the better, and they’re going down, hence they’re the only activist this country can claim).

          Does not your gut churn at this whole amerigoon phenomenon of right-wing paranoid white wackos? Cant you feel his disease?

          These are not intelligent historians, they’re either kkk militia maniacs or analogues, and need to be marginalized from intelligent debate, not entertained.

  19. Perhaps you are the one who needs to reread Primo Levy, Natureboy, as he makes no mention of gas chambers in his autobiogrphical account of his time in Auschwitz (nor does Elie Weisel). He claims he heard about it subsequently. Hmmm.

    • So the jews fabricated the extermination campaign, tattooed, starved and shot themselves by the millions, all those Hungarian jews never existed in the first place, and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion immediately manipulated history by paying the witnesses and war-criminals alike to give false testimony in order to guilt the world into making a zionist puppet state via the USA… That would be quite a con indeed.

      One of your cronies seems to have bugged the page at this link with some bad script, so be sure your anti-virus software is updated before opening:

      http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/skeptic-12.html

      Why don’t you do something useful, like help compile evidence of death squads your country used to terrorize Latin America– or is that a myth too? (No need to answer, this is NOT a dialogue I’m going to have!)

  20. Ken Meyercord needs to reread Primo Levy. Zero Growth indeed (starting with any more of the likes of him!). Hang around germans to see exactly how a hitler could come to power (or with the French a Napoleon, Italians a Mussolini, etc.). The americans and the israelis are just getting started.

    As a species we are genetically deranged, competing swarms of killer-bees rather than individuals with minds.

    • The Theory of Genetic Predisposition, and the elusive nature of the study of eugenics is tricky to say the least. But the sociological framework of a comparison between the Germans and the Jews puts us on more terra firma. More than either races would like to admit what they have in common is much. I don’t see revisionism as an end in and of itself, but a reassessing of a historical situation. Hence dialog should not be suppressed.

      • Revisionists have been denying war-crimes and genocides since modern war-crimes and genocides began (Armenian genocide, Srebrenica, or even Pinochet saying all the disappeared were ‘thieves’, and his fascist followers believing that to this day).

        We have new genome science, eugenics has been thoroughly disproved, no longer a topic for debate. Genetic predisposition could only refer to the species as a whole, not to ethnicities or groups. The genome reveals that we are apparently exceptionally genetically similar for a mammalian species, likely we once almost died out relatively recently, and all of us descending from a small group of survivors. We are the only surviving hominids to prevail.

        People fall into the pattern of societies, tribes and groups for clear survival strategy. Competition between groups was inevitable, as is dominance and power-play between individuals in most packs and herds.

        But by continuously glorifying the resulting tradition of nationalistic arrogance, creating cultural doctrines around biological impulses, distorting evolutionary psychology to dramatize our hostilities and glorifying dominance, we’re training generations to pursue certain long obsolete evolutionary behaviors at the expense of certain others.

        By now the concept of nations and tribes is obsolete. We are finally one group: The species.

        Survival now depends not on glorifying the aggressive chemistry that pursues conflict between nations, but in nurturing the other, more important impulses with which we as a species are equally (and uniquely) endowed, such as compassion, empathy, and intelligence.

        The success of the USA should have taught us that national identities do not need to be ethnic ones, and that nationalism itself is the primary impulse, which if distorted and pervetd, becomes a psychological disease. Instead of leading the world to a better way to manage our group mentality, we cfreated ‘American exceptionalism’, ‘capitalism’, etc. and resultant endless wars and waste.

        How we choose to design our political environment is a choice we now make. We have the evolutionary behavioral menu to choose from, it’s a matter of which aspects of our psychology we choose to train into ourselves and the subsequent generation.

        From a survival standpoint, aspects of socialism, for example, are by far the wiser choice than the profit motive alone. But over-emphasizing biological impulses of personal and national greed, we rule out other more progressive means to organize our global and national ‘tribe’. But Socialism simply cannot exist if you beat into everyone’s brains that greed is god, community can’t work with out appealing strictly to self-interest, and that this is the only way society can prosper and prevail.

        By promoting and glorifying the long-obsolete biological psychology of war, combat and conflict, and the resultant cycle of trauma and retribution, we rule out the surfacing of other, equally profound biological impulses of tribal cooperation.

        The brain does change in response to training. It could be that by emphasizing greed, violence and arrogance, the brain adapts to that pattern, and therefore certain nationalistic groups may appear to have differing genetic psychology.

        I suggest it’s likely conditioning; we could use a global ‘dog whisperer’ to redirect our instinctive behaviors along more intelligent lines.

        We may be pack-animals (or ‘troops’ as in other primates), but packs, herds and flocks do have a huge tendency to abide mass behavior that, while rooted in survival, can be detrimental to the group (pods of beached whales, lemmings & herds of bison running off cliffs en-masse, etc).

        What makes us different is our capacity to think and reason so magnificently as individuals. We should be training people to think for themselves, not follow political and religious group-think disproved and distorted ideologies to their eventual demise.

    • Looked up CODOH… Yikes!

      Those people really should be spending their time looking into refuting other more debatable atrocities, likel rocket’s investigation into why Lincoln really did fight that vile war, and especially militaristic atrocities committed by our own USA and its puppets.

      The myth of americon exceptionalism is what needs to be dismantled, not the gas chambers.

  21. I think the more intelligent discussion for you cryptonazis/jihadists is the prob into the question of whether the moon is round. Seriously.

        • mika, I don’t feel insulted at all. My suggestion is that to have a conversation with others of differing beliefs/opinions it is best not to call them names.

          Were you calling me names? I didn’t take it that way. I haven’t stated my opinion on this topic other than I believe it needs to be discussed. I find this a First Amendment issue.

        • First you accuse me of name calling, and then you tell me you didn’t take it that way. I guess that nazi/jihadist was an apt description after all.

          Anyway, having glanced at some of the articles you post, it’s very clear to me that what you’re peddling here is little more than nazi/jihadi propaganda. The intellectual level the articles you post and that of your “discussion” is the equivalent of me asking you if you’ve had sexual intercourse with your mom yesterday. Now if you want to discuss the sexual exploits of your mom here in this forum, I’d be quite open to continue this with you. Cause I believe it needs to be discussed. I find this a First Amendment issue.

        • I stated that I did not take it personally. Should I have, after what you just wrote, perhaps?

          Get back to the topic, I’m the moderator of this blog. I tell everyone not to use name calling.

          Disclaimer:

          The views and/or opinions posted on all the blog posts and in the comment sections are of the respective authors, not necessarily those of Dandelion Salad.

          And another reminder:

          The Golden Rule

          “That which is hateful to you do not do to another … the rest (of the Torah) is all commentary, now go study.” – Rabbi Hillel

        • Mika, I’ve never seen anything on this site that supports jihad or violence of any kind, in fact entirely the opposite. Therefore I’d have to concur with Dandelion Salad, your attack is worse than typical wingnut forum name-calling hyperbole, it’s slanderous and deranged. It should be moderated.

  22. If 3rd partys cant even get into presidential debates that have met federal requirements , do actually think that an intelligent discussion of the holocaust publicly can even exist in America ?

    we are bombarded with so much bullshit daily , that to even raise a question about such a subject or for that matter any subjects of such gravity the person who raises the question gets accused and shut down .

    why dont we start with exploding the Lincoln myth that is taught in America . there is a halo around that dictator that is supported from every ideological angle. and he was a man who suspended the entire bill of rights and slaughtered too many people to mention .

    as woody allen says ”history is written by the winners”. if for that reason only we need to question and dissent.

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