Jesus: Man, Messiah, or More?

The Last Supper by Palma il Vecchio, National ...

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Dandelion Salad

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Day of Discovery

[Each part is 26 minutes long.]

Was Jesus really the Son of God and the Messiah the Bible claims, or was He merely human like the rest of us? For the last 10 years, a group of scholars have been studying this very issue. Watch as they put forth their evidence, and then decide for yourself who Jesus really was.

Jesus: Man, Messiah, or More? Overview, Part I

In the ancient region of Caesarea Philippi, an important conversation took place between Jesus and His disciples: “Who do you say that I am?”

Jesus: Man, Messiah, or More? Peter’s Confession, Part II

Every year, thousands come to Jerusalem to retrace the route of Jesus’ triumphal entry into the city. But what really happened that day?

Jesus: Man, Messiah, or More? Jesus Enters Jerusalem, Part III

In the temple, Jesus overturned the tables of shopkeepers and money changers. What does this dramatic event tell us about Jesus?

Jesus: Man, Messiah, or More? The Temple Controversy, Part IV

On the night of the Last Supper, Jesus gave new meaning to the story of the Passover sacrifice. But did Jesus really know what was about to happen?

Jesus: Man, Messiah, or More? The Last Supper, Part V

The Gospel accounts say Jesus was arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, then interrogated, accused, and beaten. But is that what really happened?

Jesus: Man, Messiah, or More? The Jewish Examination of Jesus, Part VI

Who actually killed Jesus, and why? Was His death simply an unfortunate event?

Jesus: Man, Messiah, or More? The Crucifixion, Part VII

For 2000 years, the resurrection has been the crowning event of Christian faith. But is it more than a matter of faith? Is there historical evidence of an empty tomb?

Jesus: Man, Messiah, or More? The Resurrection of Jesus, Part VIII

see

Dr. Michael Rydelnik: My Search for Messiah

Chris Hedges: When America leaves reality behind

And They Crucified Him by Art Katz

Israel: The Politics of Faith and a Land of Conflict

The Future of Israel by Art Katz

Jewish Marxist Atheist has vision of Jesus

Jesus of Nazareth (1977)

124 thoughts on “Jesus: Man, Messiah, or More?

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  17. nature boy — Neitzche reminds us that worshipping reason is a dead end street. that is why he takes the word ”irrational” out of the pergorative and puts in a good place toward understandng the mystery of human nature and being able to cope with it in his book ”the birth of tragedy ” about ancient greeks.
    the good news of jesus the messiah does not have to be reasonable to our finite pea brains . it is under no obligation to be . but an honest seeker will doubt their won doubts as well as they doubt God . this is call fair and equal time . question the authority of your own mind . when you see that it is finite . the message of christ makes much more sense that you can even imagine .

    • Nietzche died a complete nut case.

      “In January 1889 Nietzsche suffered a mental breakdown in Turin, Italy. He was found in a street, weeping and embracing a horse. Nietzsche lived first in an asylum and then in his family’s care. His insanity was probably due to an early syphilitic infection. During his disease Nietzsche was almost invariably gentle and pleasant, and in lucid hours he engaged in conversation. Nietzsche spent his last decade in mental darkness and died in Weimar on August 25, 1900.”

      http://kirjasto.sci.fi/nietzsch.htm

      Yeah, there’s a great source of inspiration……….

      • Frank — i was qouting Neitzches first book way before he went nuts. He is one of the most important intellectuals in the last 500 years. if you read ”Birth of Tragedy ” you will see what i was getting at. 30 years ahead of its time .

  18. DS, you or WP did not provide a Reply capabity for your post, or reply, so I’ll now quote and respond to it.

    Quote: “dandelionsalad, on May 5, 2010 at 4:45 PM Said:

    It wasn’t a hallucination, I’ve never experienced anything like this before or after.

    It’s not exclusionary, quite the opposite in fact. It’s a free gift, open to all.

    I’m not concerned with my salvation, I’m concerned for those who are not saved, including you.”

    Now who the heck do you think you are, Jesus. You can’t be concerned for my salvation, since you know nothing about me and are just a judgmental person, which Jesus wasn’t and taught against being.

    When you begin to get beyond elementary age Christianism, then let me know. Your website is not good and I don’t care if you agree that 9/11 was an inside job; as well as the 1995 OKC Bombing, etcetera. And if you don’t realise that these were all inside jobs, then we have no reason to relate with or to one another, at all.

    I have no time to waste with presumptiuous, pompous people, and you’re clearly among them. Bye-bye.

      • DS,

        Sorry for being an ass in my reply and for having been [unable] to know whose post you were replying to.

        I’m not sure how I mistook your reply to natureboy as if it had been to me, but just looked for your post that I quoted from and replied to, closing with calling you pompous, etcetera, and now see what the problem was.

        This website based on WP obviously does not work well when replies are nested to the point that it becomes impssible to see which posts are replied to.

        Therefore, my recommendation is to always begin replies with a clear indication of which posts the replies are related to.

        And since the confusion should now be clear, I may return to your website, for I’ve appreciated enough of what I’ve seen in the past, but I would not want to get into so much post and reply that posts become a little over an inch wide and etcetera.

        • Welcome back, Mike! Apology accepted.

          I’m sorry about the nesting of the comments. I have it set to a probably too high of a number, I’ll change it to a lower one. But yes, when everyone is replying on a post like this one, the comments get hard to track.

          ***

          Just changed it to 6; hope it doesn’t mess up too many of the replies on this post.

        • Yes, I imagine that dropping the levels down to six might cause a few posts to get tossed around a little, or whatever the effect will be; but there surely weren’t more than a few posts that were nested deeper than six levels or … whatever the term is.

          I appreciate you making the change, but hope it doesn’t bother your regular visitors … too much.

          And thanks for the “welcome back”, which I knew you would do. I haven’t read loads of your articles over the years, but still enough to have a good idea about you certainly being fair-minded, at least. I probably won’t be around much for a little while, because I’ll be busy with other things, but will stop in or by now and then.

  19. First of all, Mike, I don’t know anyone who could live poorer than me and I have volunteered at soup kitchens and homeless shelters for decades. I believe in literally living the gospel.

    • There’s much that can be said about what you wrote. There are also some fitting questions about it. But while I know that cyrstal meth is VERY BAD stuff and that it should never have been invented, I won’t elaborate on the rest regarding drugs and the difference between natural and human-made kinds. There’s too much that can be said, and there’s also much that can be questioned about you supposedly being so poor that NO one else is more poor than you, which is highly doubtful for any white American. I’m third-worlder white and don’t live in an urban area that makes it possible for me to be involved with drug addicts or people with other problems,

      I know there are third-worlders in North America, including in the U.S. and Canada, and that some whites here are of third-world-like poverty, but there are third-worlders who are worse off than others and I don’t believe any poor whites in the Americas are this poor. I’m third-worlder poor, but know that there’s even worse poverty. I have more than $1 or $2 a day to live on. Not a lot more, but still more. I have about $8.30 a day to live with after room rent. It might be $8.33, but I don’t think the extra 3 cents matters.

      Try to get out of that situation when you have too much academic studies and professional experience. You then are not believed to be credibly employable for jobs requiring only high school diplomas just because you have too much for higher educ. and IT work, you are also not qualified for IT jobs because you’ve been unemployed for too long and didn’t gain experience with the newer skills. Either or both ways, you are “screwed”.

      I can’t afford to go around and help people who have problems. on roughly $8 a day, it’s a job to manage to eat properly. If you eat cheap junk food that’s garbage in order to help other people, then I have no sympathy for this; it’s against my principles. Everyone needs healthy food and as long as most people idiotically treat garbage as food, besides for salvagable food thrown into garbage canisters, anyway, but they’re all locked up around where I live, so they serve no benefit to the poor; well, I have no sympathy.

      Throw good, consumable food out in garbage canisters and don’t put locks on them! I’m annoyed with grocery stores locking up their garbage canisters.

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  21. I’m glad to have come across this page and hope to have or take time to view the videos, but am also seriously “tied up” with studying up on research and analyses on the 9/11 attacks of 2001, the different aspects of the whole story of those events.

    Religion, and imo, is very simple and can be basically summed up according to some of the teachings of Jesus. F.e., when the rich Jew came to him and said that he had always adhered to the Ten Commandments, but wanted to know what more he could or should do, Jesus replied by saying to love God with all of his abilities to do so and to love neighbours as the man loved himself; including the sharing of his wealth with people in need. And when Jesus was asked about the best way to pray, which can, I believe, also be considered worshipping God, he said that it’s not by attending public gatherings, etcetera, which he said hypocrites regularly did and do; but, instead, to pray within our own private rooms.

    A person might ask what this room is; or if it’s associated with our residences? Or the person might literalistically think that the room is a part of their place of physical residence, but it isn’t, really. It is a part of our physical residence when we’re there; but if and when we’re not there, then it’s not pertinent, unless we have and use the gift, say, of bilocation.

    This special room is [within] us wherever we go or are. It is not external to us. It’s not a space that we physically occupy. It’s a “space” that’s within us. A person can be on a public bus or other means of transportation with other people while still being able to privately be in relation with God within the person’s own internal room without taking up any extra space, externally. Wherever the spirit, soul, mind, conscience is, the private and personal room is present and can be actively, even if unnoticeably for others, used; until the gov’t brainwashes us to the point of rendering us incapable of making use of our private rooms, anyway. As long as we are lucid, we can make use of our private, personal rooms.

    Being placed under serious duress is or becomes an impediment, but not like it’s the victim’s fault.

    Perhaps this illustrates that religion and life are not disconnected, say, for me or imo. It also wasn’t for Jesus, who drew or illustrated the connection between real religious faith and “everyday” life, society, existence. As soon as religion becomes disconnected from reality, then … worry, for it’s a symptom of a very serious problem.

    We can see that with the Zionist so-called Christians and the so-called Fundamentalist Christians of the U.S.; very unique to the U.S. too, they are. They have spread their diseased religious ideas to other countries, but nowhere to the extent of the sickness found in the U.S., which should work on containing, restraining, and eliminating this social and religiously perverted disease.

    A lot of young Americans who claim to be atheists and flame away at Christianity full blast are another example of sickness in the U.S. These fools pretend that they speak for [all] persons who say that they’re atheists, and anyone who’s read about intelligent and educated atheists outside of the U.S. can know that enough of them have had serious respect for Jesus, while also believing in the spirutual and in a Supreme Being, who some of us call God. A strict definition of atheism may be, if not is, that atheists have no spiritual beliefs whatsoever, so, iow, they’re purely materialistic; but this’d be the overly constrictive definition some people chose to place in dictionaries. An atheist, as some have proven or demonstrated, can simply be someone who does not adhere or believe in any known or defined theisms, that is, someone who believes in a Supreme Being and having a soul or spirit, but who does not have a theism beyond this.

    These young or immature Americans pretending to be atheists and being able to speak for [all] atheists of all of human history are quacks and self-contradictory. They usually or always pretend to be for peace, justice, etcetera, but they viciously flame or attack [all] Christians, neglecting the facts that not all Christians are of a false kind and that Jesus never did anything negative or harmful for, towards or to society. These cocky young or immature idiots of the U.S., a damn diseased culture, as the great and intellectual comedian, George Carlin, said with his skit entitled, “YOU ARE ALL DISEASED”, f.e.; well, these cocky idiot American atheists don’t speak for all atheists and they evidently don’t speak for George Carlin, either.

    He can seem to be anti-religious, but he’s actually very spiritual in what he says. And he’s right to condemn institutionalized religion even if it’s not what he specifically or explicitly refers to. A truly sane religious person can listen to him and GAIN from doing so. Never does he attack God. Never does he attack persons who are religious and of good will, etcetera. He only attacks religious hypocrisy, imperialism, etcetera, and this is highly in agreement with the teachings and ways of Jesus.

    Real and sane religion is really that simple. Jesus did not teach rocket science. He did not teach or ask for anything really difficult to comprehend or do; though it’s of course difficult for someone who doesn’t have enough finance to be able to eat for a month to be able to feed others. Well, he didn’t ask the poor to starve themselves in order to share food with others, either. He did condemn usury and did say that the wealthy need to share with people in need, but never said that the latter persons need to starve themselves or ourselves in order to share food with other desperately poor people. He wasn’t nuts. He was very sane and realistic.

    Is it realistic to believe in God? Sure it is. Even the scientific Law of Causality infers that God, aka Creator, exists.

    But it’s not sane to insanely believe or claim to believe in God; especially not when this is associated with psychopathic conduct, as is found with Zionist so-called Christians [of the U.S.].

    Nevertheless, I hope to get the time in for viewing the videos you provided links for. I’m certainly interested in finding out what the evidently non-mundane presentation consists of.

    • Mike , there is a lot of things here that i agree with .

      in regards to the inner room that Jesus speaks of , and that going to that space within us . yes . no doubt. but we must first as Jesus said be ”Born of the Spirit ” ( John ch 3. )

      if we are not re-born of God thru the mediation and blood sacrifice of Jesus when we enter into that inner space we will find Nada –nothing . void . but if we are truly born of God , re-born when we enter that place that is real communion with the Father in heaven .

      Another example of this is when Jesus says ”greater works shall you do than me , because i go to the Father” . a lot of people in the new age scene stop at the comma . they always quote Jesus halfway ”greater works shall you do than me ..then stop there. that half truth is a lie. the greaters than him is” BECAUSE I go to the Father . ” what does this mean ? it means that he goes to sit at the right hand of God after purifying sins so that we can have the authority to do greater things . without that ”Because ”, there is nothing more than narcissistic self inflating prattle . so , going to the inner room , the Neuma , the deepest part of us without being re-born is as hypocritical and counter productive as praying in public .

      concerning the divinity of Christ question . i laid it out , and you did not respond . maybe you did not see it , cause there is a lot going on on this thread . but if you scroll down and take the pepsi challenge so to speak , i think i laid out a pretty good case from the texts , that at least the texts themselves point to his divinity . heck , even the Gnostics believed he was God ..they just could not accept his humanity . so the non canonical texts agree with the canonicals in that regard from the Nag Hammadi .

      Christ divinity was not even questioned until the bishop Airas brought it up 300 years after Christ.

      • You don’t have to be [re]-born of God, and no one can be re-born. You’re born once; and you die only once. We can be
        awakened about things we didn’t previously realise, that is, we can become newly informed, but NO ONE can be born or die more than once; unless you believe in re-incarnation, which I definitely don’t.

        Anyone using the term re-born is questionable right away. What does this person really understand about what he or she is talking about, for re-birthing does not exist and can’t?

        I’m not speaking of gov’ts re-birthing, say, small pox, poliio, … other deadly and serious diseases. It’s big profit for Big Pharma and strategically useful, say, for warfare; or to drop the total human population down a few billion or so “notches”. We might think that globalist corporations want more human population, but they strategically understand that there is a limit to set, in their opinion; secreted opinion, that is. Well, a few of them have “let the cat out of the bag” and it screams EUGENICS, etcetera. Oh, not to worry, we’ll just be efaced. No “big deal”.

        They’ll tell us that we’re just going through a re-birthing phase and will, therefore, sound very religious.

        Get rid of the nonsensical “re-born” crap. No one has ever been and no one will ever be re-[born]. It didn’t and can’t happen!

        But we can wake up, though.

        So when will re-birthers wake up?

        • Yes, off-topic; sort of anyway. Eugenics is a topic that Jesus would address, but many Christians would prefer to not do this.

        • Mike, Jesus said in John Ch. 3 that except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. It is quite clear that you are not born again, therefore you cannot see the kingdom of God. This kingdom consists of God’s light that is revealed to an individual supernaturally through Jesus Christ. Since you do not have this light, you are in darkness.

          This happened to me 36 years ago and has happened to millions of people throughout history. This has nothing to do with religion, it has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with firsthand, direct, divine revelation.

          By reducing Jesus to being only a messenger you cannot see that He is the message Himself. For, like He said in the Gospel of John, “except that you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you.” The messenger is the message. For the messenger is God Himself.

        • Quote: “Mike, Jesus said in John Ch. 3 that except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. It is quite clear that you are not born again, therefore you cannot see the kingdom of God. This kingdom consists of God’s light that is revealed to an individual supernaturally through Jesus Christ. Since you do not have this light, you are in darkness. ”

          Now that is quite POMPOUS of you to claim.

          When Jesus spoke of being “born again”, he was really speaking of being AWAKENED to the reality of God. I was born March 25th, 1957, and there is no way that I will be re-born again; unless I was to believe in re-incarnation, which I don’t. Some people claim that there’s evidence for real re-incarnations, but based on what I’ve read about careful investigations into this, it was all explicable in social or cultural terms. In any case, I don’t believe in re-incarnation and Jesus never taught that we should believe in this.

          Darkness pervades this world. See the Blood, Sweat & Tears, blood and sweat anyway, article that I provided a ForteanTimes.com link for in another post. We are all in darkness. It [does] pervade this world. 9/11 was an inside job. The same was also true with the OKC bombing in 1995, and very much also true with the WTC bombing in 1993. The Vietnam War was all based on aggression. Pres. JFK wanted to end the Cold War and the aggression vis-a-vis Cuba, but DARKNESS took him out. What the U.S. did to Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia are of extreme darkness. What the U.S. does all over this planet is of DARKNESS. It is [pervasive]!

          Pretend to me that darkness does not pervade this world and once you do this, then go preach to the founder of SoAW, School of Americas Watch, Rev. Kevin Annett, and so on. Preach boy; since you clearly mis-assume that you are PREACHER!

          Let’s not belittle the darkness that is very present! You might not see it, but maybe you should then stop looking at the Sun while thinking it’s God.

          You’re just another American and I don’t have much respect for U.S. education because it’s usually pitiful. You are not taught critically objective skills. You’re mostly brainwashed.

          I had a few words with God several days before 9/11 and if you think that you’ve ever witnessed anything of mysterical nature, then you ain’t seen nothing to compare. I immediately knew and had to know that there was hell coming and very fast. It involved [carpet bombing] and the imperialistic hidden hand, for it’s hidden, even if it is discernable. War clouds; real ones! And it wasn’t the only mysterical-order experience that I’ve had.

          Sure, God knows that I’m [very] concerned about this world’s events. Sure, He knows that this is my primary attention or focus. But He also knows that I believe in him and Jesus, and that I have often defended Them. He knows that I know far from everything, and not even you can really say who the Holy Spirit is, beyond what you’ve read or heard about him. People watch Disney and think they have a God-experience!

          Maybe you’re holier than I am, and this is very possible, but I fret not, because I believe in the God that Jesus taught about; not the one people like you pretend to be able to teach about. I believe in a Merciful God and that the Holy Spirit will be my advocate even as bum as I am. The Holy Spirit will intervene and say, “Even if this guy has been a “loser” most of his life, his morals have always been straight and he’s never forgotten about or ceased to love us”, f.e. If we go based on your Western distortion of Christianity, however, then hell is where I’m heading. But ya see, God doesn’t favour Westerners. He thinks they’re mostly SICK and a bunch of low-watted “christians”. So I’m safe.

          God does not like Westerners. He knows most Western christians are full of bs. Etcetera. Why would God be beholding to your sicknesses of imperialism, colonialism, genocide, etcetera? NO sane God would be!

          Try that vision of God on “for size”.

        • you got the wrong dude mike . i am an anti-imperialist , anti war , anti SOA , anti death penalty guy .i work in soup kitchens for the poor and homeless , and also visit prisons and do free concerts and write the prisoners . i am not a christian right wing nut that has ever bought into the american empire. i realize that you wish i were so you could stereotype me , and dismiss me , but i am not dismissed so lightly . check out my personal testimony on the night that Christ revealed Himself to me 36 years ago . google my name in . my name is rocket kirchner . my testimony is called The Crossing .

        • I added your Youtube Channel to my subscriptions and will tryto check these out. You certainly seem sincere and I appreciate sincerity.

        • You’ll recognize me, because I have the same username everywhere on the Internet Sometimes the first and last names are not separated with a space, but it’s otherwise the same username.

          Now I need to get to your videos. I used to complain about people not reading enough, but since I’ve acquired hi-speed internet capability, I have found that videos are very useful.

          If you’re the guitarist in 70s Today, then yuu clearly are someone I can speak with. Simple it is, but still great

          Are you the guitarist in these videos? If you
          are, then you’re evidently a man of my sort of
          soul and cause some tears, which I appreiciate and don’t.
          I do, because this world’s reality deserves
          tears; and I don’t, because I’m pissed because of whis world. Torn.

          But the music is good either way. Want to
          tranquil my heart? Provide some good muisic, then.

          It’ll get me through my most difficult times and I’m going through some now.

          Forget Elton John though. These people are among the eugenics, … elites!

        • You have some violent, fanatical content though.
          I just viewed ” A Ripple In The World Clip 3″, that is rather violent.

          tt also has no real purpose. Sure, we can argue that
          that violent content is the purpose, of showing that
          humans can be violent. But that’s not sufficient reason.

          So while you provide some parts of good music clipssss,
          you also posted nonsense violence.

          And you want to pretend to be born-again Christian?

          Let’s get real here. You provided video clips which make little sense and which show violence without explanation, any.

          And you want people to believe that you’re a Prophet of Jesus?
          Get real.

        • Mike, I don’t pretend to be a born-again Christian, I am one. As a matter of fact, I am a Christian pacifist against all violence.

          Concerning the “Ripple in the World Clip”, that comes from a movie written and directed by Aron Cho. In the 3 scenes that I put up on Youtube I am an actor in the movie who plays the part of a preacher that is attempting to help meth addicts and to preach peace amongst violent people. I very much approved of my part in the movie and many people have opened up to Christ as a result of Aron Cho’s movie. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJzXcowbx-0 (clip 1)

          The rest of the videos on Youtube are my original material. Hope you enjoy the tunes.

        • Quote: “This happened to me 36 years ago and has happened to millions of people throughout history”.

          Try [not] speaking or writing like a FANATIC. You don’t know that what you say has “happened to millions of people throughout history” and definitely can’t prove it. You can [pretend] that you know this, as you have pretended, but NO real Christian is about pretense. You can’t support your words and surely know this, so why do you try to pretend the contrary?

          No real Christian would do that. I was born in 1957, not in the 1990s; and have had a few years to learn about this world and religion. So who are you trying to fool?

          Try being realistic and only saying things you can reasonably back up, for until you do this, your words are just those of another, and as-usual, American fanatic. The U.S. is full of such so-called Christians, so it’s time to try to change this reality, instead of adding more to it.

          Did you also attend Jesus Camp? Maybe you would’ve enjoyed this … lunacy.

          Do you realise that only a serious minority of Christians in the U.S. are [sane]? If you haven’t been re-born to this fact, then Jesus has been seriously neglecting education for American Christians; and so-called priests love to help this mess-up along. Only a minority, and it is not large, of Christians in the U.S. are sane and reasonably educated.

          You might be one of the lucky fewm but it’s not obvious. You make claims that you and no one else can back up, and this is NOT Christian conduct, for it’s to lie or blatantly lie. A real Christian does not state anything he or she can’t back up. We can theorize. We can speculate. But we have to be honest.

          You weren’t.

          I don’t treat God and Jesus as if unrelated to this world. I also don’t watch Disney. God and Jesus are real in this world or they’re not, and if they’re not, then there are better topics to focus on, but I believe that they are real, alright.

          And God is not totally separate from this world. He knows what’s going on and doesn’t like it, but He’s not going to intervene like some sort of pupeteer, either. If He did that, then forget the concepts of primordial individual conscience, personal responsbility, etcetera. They’d be MOOT. God can’t really intervene. It’d render our lives rather pointless if He did. He depends on us and we should be thankful for this, as suffering as the experience is. It permits us to be [individuals]. Without that, we’re nothing.

          I know that He doesn’t like it because I know what I saw days before 9/11 and it clearly was not about a pleased God. He knew every detail related to 9/11 and I got a special “inkling” of insight into this. I did not get details. I got the “big picture”, but if you saw this, then you were on your butt. It had me shooken, say, for a couple of months, but I told a couple of people days after this event and before 9/11. I was reluctant to say anything about this to anyone, but told a couple of people before 9/11 anyway. I didn’t want to keep what I had witnessed only to myself! Both always agreed that 9/11 did not happen according to the official story, but they even seemed to realise when I told them about what I witnessed that it was U.S. elites, … acting again. The two non-elite Canadians immediately seemed to understand that bad was going to happen and not because of foreigners.

          They didn’t elaborate, but they clearly indicated that they suspected the U.S elite(s). Both had had associations with the Hells Angels, so they weren’t unfamiliar to criminals, gangsterism, etcetera; therefore, maybe they had some insight into the criminality of gov’t that I didn’t have. They had never been members of the HA, but certainly had had associations, and one of the two persons still did and perhaps still does, today, It’s not a pleasant relationship from what I’ve seen of it, for it’s like dangerous, very; I didn’t know if the guy would live through what I saw, but he managed.

          Not all HA are that bad, but when dealing with the very dangerous members, then … you don’t want to be there. CIA is only worse.

          Anyway, one was (is) former Black Watch, Canadian Army, very nasty during WW II, and the other was (I guess) sort of hippy; kind of anyway. Maybe it was because they were Canadian, but whatever the reason was, they both seemed to realise that events that were bad were due to U.S. elites. Again, this was before 9/11. I waited a few days before telling anyone, but believe to have told them around four days after what I saw.

          I had only been talking to God about all of the social-order problems, injustices … in this world and was provided with … more bad news. And I have had a vision of Heaven, somewhat, but this doesn’t put food on my table! I have had a vision of light from Heaven. I have had a vision in which Jesus appeared, and other people surely in Heaven also appeared. But were these dreams, or real visions? Ah-ha. it’s a question to always ask.

          When evidently non-poor people like yourself can stop preaching and start leading by example, then I’ll care. Until then, your words are moot wortheless. You perhaps live “high on the hog” while looking down at other people. Do you? If you do, then you haven’t a single thing to teach about Christianity. If I’m wrong, then to heck with so-called Jesus. If he wants to kiss the asses of the elites, then he should be honest about this and get out of our faces.

          But that’s only the American Jesus. When we look at the real Jesus, we find a wholly different individual.

          So, yah, I must be in Darkness, right? Well, I live in the West.

  22. DS, you last responded to me saying, among other things, “Hey, it used to be me, believe me I was much more anti-Christian than you or others I’ve talked with”.

    I am not anti-Christian. I am Christian, but not in a Euro-American way. Instead, I refer to Jesus of [Nazareth], ya know, Palestine today; not quite European and certainly not Roman or empire.

    You say, “What I’m trying to do is give some decent educational material that people can check out, hopefully with an open mind”, and I think that’s obvious enough. I have not thought differently from what I’ve seen, so far, at your blog. You have not given me a contrary view; no cause for any, anyway. I’ve known about your blog for years and while I never commented, here, I’ve known about DS; having read here, and having come across some references that were from one or two websites that I judged to be making a good choice.

    I don’t question your openness. You’re doing well in terms of 9/11 and anyone who can do this in good ways is obviously someone who is of fair mind, or better, and fair is already good; better is only better, but fair is always GOOD. Fair is all we really need from a common perspective. After that, some of us can be a little more stringent, say, than the others, but if we all have at least fair mindedness for commonness, say, then we can have a powerful base.

    No, we don’t have nuclear weapons, B-52s, etcetera, etcetera, but if WE, THE PEOPLE, wake up and become restless, as we should be, then technology won’t be the solution against us. After all, the tech. doesn’t act of its own will. It takes politicians, and other perverts, to make use of their death instruments, to act against us. If enough of the population wakes up and joins activism against the power elites, then they will need to buckle down before we do; the longer they refuse, the more we can become numerous and persistent.

    They’ve already lost their planned “game”, but when they’ll accept to finally give up trying to pursue their game is another matter or question. They’re awfully obstinate creatures.

    They’ve lost. The problem is for everyone to become aware of this.

    1993, WTC bombing; if not quite qualifiable as an inside job, then a hairline from it

    1995, OKC Bombing; if not … Forget “if not …” suppositions. It provably was an inside job.

    2001; …. Cut the waste and get with reality. INSIDE JOB!

    I had two reasons to find the launching of the war on Afghanista very suspect. Bush said, before the launching of the war, that the Taliban had had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks, but he was talking of war on them, which is anti-Constitutional, etcetera. And, four or five mornings before 9/11, I was by a river nature-watching after my night shift having a few beers and talking to God about the problematic nature of this world, because of humans, gov’ts, .., and something astoundingly and shockingly unusual appeared. To keep the description short, and primitive it’ll be, what appeared were war clouds and the symbolism of imperialism. The war, carpet bombing, imperialistic aggression, this was all evident in what I saw, and I was stunned for a couple of months, though told a couple of individuals I then personally knew about this starting a few days later. Both understood and one was formerly of Black Watch forces of the Canadian Army, and BW has a poor reputation in Ca, because of past BW history, which I don’t doubt. The guy I knew told me what his father, who was of the BW during WW II, told him, and it evidently drove his father to being a serious alcoholic.

    His father, during WW II, entered homes of people who were among soldiers of officers of the Nazi forces, and when BW left, there were no survivors, say. This of course is like or very much like cold-blooded murder. The father of the guy I knew evidently could not quite “wash this down”.

    Anyway, the two I described what I saw to never questioned. Instead, they seemed to [instinctively] know or realise that 9/11 was bs as far as the Bush-Cheney administration goes.

    Anyway, I had only been talking to God about the problems in this world and then I got this shocking revelation about much worse soon commencing, and it very shortly did; only days later. It had nothing to do with foreigners. It was about imperialism against others, which of course also means against the domestic population, for their support.

    I’m anti-nonsense, but not anti-Christian, -Jew, -Hindu, …, as long as we work on getting rid of myth and religious prejudices. I don’t consider the divinity of Jesus a matter of myth. WE have no way to prove that it’s myth, or not. His social-order teachings are understandable and accepted by many people who are not professed Christians, and his religious teachings tell us of a God who wants us to love each other as we love ourselves, etcetera. No sane [and] mature human being could disagree. And God does not and never did ask the impossible of us. He never did and never will. He’d have to be a serious fool to expect the impossible from us and He is absolutey not a fool.

    I’m a Christian, and born and raised American, but I was born and raised of non-Anglo immigrant family.

    Maybe that’s why you think I am not Chrisitan and if it is, then I’m not surprised. Many Americans, including atheists, pretend that they speak for everyone on Earth of the same professions, and these Americans usually are very mistaken. Christianity is NOT based on what Americans say it is and the same applies to atheism.

    Don’t tell that to Americans though. They need some kind of disneyland fuel to keep them going.

      • Ooops.

        Well, let my words stand irrelevant of the fact that you didn’t reply because of my post. Besides for the little that I wrote that can be associated with your reply based on Natureboy’s post, the rest is pretty much general; not specifically related to your post. And perhaps my post can simply be understood as wholly unrelated to yours. I hope it can be understood this way, anyway.

  23. natureboy –this is your lucky day pal . tomorrow is my spiritual birthday –may day is when Christ appeared to me and gave me a new birth . and believe me i was much more hostile than you . but what do you do when it happens to you ?

    you see , we are not talking about dust here . we are talking about a person that is alive. a person that changes lives. that is the evidence. we who have had our lives changed are the resurrection phenomenons . for he has risen and lives in us . the key word here is ”LIVES” .

    you sayd , that that is fine , keep it to yourself . ok , lets look at that for a minute . after my out of the blue conversion ..one of the first things that struck me was the Christians i knew in high school that never told me about Christ . when i asked them about it , they said ”knowing you , there is no way you would have listened ”. probably true . i was so hostile to Jesus freaks that i went out of my way to tear their faith down .

    but that still was no excuse for the ones that i had a friendship with ( 2 fellow great musicians ) to never tell me nor confront me .
    so you see , i cannot remain silent . and i have not stop spreading the good news since . many have come to know Christ because of that , and where hostile at first , then later came back to thank me . they said ” no one else had the courage to tell me .. but you did ”.

    so there it is pal . i actually think that you are not far from the Kingdom of God . i realize to the rational mind this all sounds silly and foolish , and naive . it is supposed to . but when the Messiah is revealed to a person , it then makes sense , and man’s finite logic gets in line with the infinite vision of the divine , instead of being boss itself .

  24. natureboy — the problem with that is that even if there were concrete verifiable evidence , most people would prefer not to believe , becuase that would require them to give up their entire life to become a follower of Jesus . Dietrick Bonhoffer , a theologican , activist , and martyr during the holocaust said ” when Christ bids a man , he bids him to die”. this runs contrary to the pig in us that wants to live our life the way we want to .
    i realize that mike and my dialogue can sound a bit tautological . and that is frustrating .
    i would recommend jon dominic crossan’s work on the historic Jesus . its a thick read , but he sqeezes about as much verifiable extant sources possible . he is a naturalist though , and views Jesus bringing the ultimate revoltion .so his view is sociopolitical .
    as far as a real good blockbuster that is hard to beat on evidence , there is a brilliant british christian named N.t. Wright . His book is called ”The Ressurection of the Son of God ”. its real thick and ( excuse the pun ) leaves no stone unturned .

    • Don’t we have enough problems in the here and now reality without dealving into a mouldy bookworm tunnel?

      Blind belief in scripture may have made great mosques and cathedrals, but it lacks any relevance to the problems of the here/now (unless you’d be a dispensationalist?).

      When/where ever were any scripural literalists of any use to progress?

      Last call was Dr. King, a far greater christian than any palinot. Was he a biblical messianic literalist?

      Why would you preach this doctrine when the Buddhists were so closer to the brain problem of human campssion and conflict? Would not jesus have been tempered had he known Buddha, was he not human and distorted by the conflicts of the miserable, unlivable region we still suffer wars about?

      Listen again. King knew the news, and found his heart in the reality of the moment. It wasn’t about the irrational idealization of dust (aka jesus), it was about the content of our living character.

      Denoting the bible doesn’t add dignity to the cause, we’ve seen very well where blind belief leads, over and over.

      This is not to discount belief, just keep your religion to your selves, this is not something that will save lives. If it helps you keep balance, fine, keep it to yourselves. For the rest of the thinking world it’s bunch of malarkey and unermines everyting else you have to say.

      Jezus didn’t invent conscientiousness, nor was his proclaimed theorem the necessarily only way to peace (and nor was he the only one of his time who had his particular afterlife cult)

      Why n pick him to worship? What if someone told you in fact he was NOT the only messiah of that era? Just because it’s in a big over-edited old book, you buy it?

      I don’t think so!

        • I wish it were so.

          Dandelions, gardening and music are news I can believe. Jesus is history, beyond that his story becme a kind of psychedelic conceptoid.

          If that’s news to you, it’s news to me, but my filter flings up on autopilot– we need filters!

          I wish I had someone I could believe in, someone to love that way, but jesus is to me just another fellow jew, unwashed, no water, no proper wood around for a carpenter, so why not wander death valley and get stoned on desolation, disillusion & dust? It was the desert style (and he did it all ithout mushrooms or cacti!)

          Somehow I think people got way too strung out on jesus, and I don’t think he’d be pleased.

        • History is not news? Hmm, if we do not know our history, you know the saying, we are bound to repeat it. DS posts a lot of history. https://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/category/history/

          As far as your comments about Jesus all I can say is you seem to have “contempt prior to investigation.” That’s why I post these videos from time to time, so my readers can possibly learn something. This particular video series features historians who have worked on this project for 10 years. They are credible to me.

          This website has many, many other videos. I suggest these:

          (3 part series)
          The Jewish Roots of Christianity, Part I http://www.dod.org/Products/DOD2151.aspx

          (3 part series)
          My Search for Messiah: https://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2010/06/13/dr-michael-rydelnik-my-search-for-messiah/

          Please don’t confuse Jesus with some or even many of His followers. He would not be pleased with those who claim to be His followers and are also pro-war/violence. That is mutually exclusive, imo. Look into the Catholic Workers, social justice all the way and followers of Jesus.

        • Of course you know I’d be the very last person equipped or inspired to debate the topic and shouldn’t even comment.

          Some of my favorite people are observant christians, even clergy. I’m not opposing nor negating, I’m just personally not compelled nor convinced, and nobody has appeard before me to suggest convincingly otherwise…

          Regarding biblical history, would it not be safe to say that such an old text, with so many authors, recopied and amended, is at best an idealized version of events, not dissimilar to other transcriptions of ancient histories, like the Iliad or Oddessy? Do you accept the literal interpretation of heaven, hell, the afterlife, and creation as described?

        • Jews and Messianic Jews don’t believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible, only Fundamentalist Christians do that I’m aware, although I could be wrong. Will have to ask Rocket that question. I certainly do not.

          There are many good resources available to learn about the Bible. In fact, this video is one of them. The men are historians and look to other writings to back up what is written in the Bible.

        • Honestly Lo, I’m quite certain I’ve made quite a fool of myself commenting here, I’ve not even watched the videos.

          It’s not enough for me to imagine I have something intelligent to contribute, my comments above are all obnoxious and irrelevant. I am so sorry to have wasted time and space bloviating like that.

          I think you are right about the heart. How we get beyond the head to the heart is a contemporary problem.

          Anyway I wish you would delete my entries here. I will go study the posts and links and see if then I have anything at all to offer or questions.
          My apologies.

        • Your comments are instructive. There are many people who also have “contempt prior to investigation.” What I’m trying to do is give some decent educational material that people can check out, hopefully with an open mind. What’s funny is I’ve found that many people who say they are “liberal” in fact when it comes to Jesus their minds are very, very closed. Hey, it used to be me, believe me I was much more anti-Christian than you or others I’ve talked with.

          Oftentimes the intellect gets in the way of keeping your heart and mind open. The best thing to do is just read some of the New Testament for yourself. Learn about Jesus and forget about his unruly followers.

          If you know and understand your Judaism, it makes more sense, but so often Jews don’t really know their own history and culture and religion. The things that Jesus said and did were extremely radical and revolutionary.

        • I suppose I don’t know & understand my judaism because it’s thoroughly, irrevocably disproved.

          The human genome has been decoded, we are all exactly the same, in fact uniquely so for a mammal or most species.

          Orthodox have shunned me for not observing, zionist cold-blooded killers have tried to convince me I’m ‘special’ (aka ‘chosen’), germans have called me a ‘kleine schwartzharige yid’ (even though I’m blond and 6′ tall).

          This is all, for me, a huge problem with believers, a fanaticism. It becomes an irrational way to divide, to patronize to claim superiority, and to oppress,

          In the end, none of it is true, not Jesus, not jehova, nor yeshua, it’s all old mythology of no relevance to life on earth nor the universe at large. It’s a trap, it’s a brain disorder. It’s the ‘god part of the brain’. Denomination is a disease, just another right-wing secret-society of no relevance.

          This is not an indictment of spirituality or whatever, but for a truth-seeker, it’s pure poppycock, it’s a myth, it’s bogus BS and needs to be questioned at every pass.

          The comfort of ‘belief’ is not worth the self-indulgent lie, the patronizing myth of exclusivity, the falsehood of ‘holier than thou’ (or ‘suffered more than thou’). Certainly a farce to be proselytizing about.

          Pull out of the trap for a minute, depressing as it seems, and you’ll surely this is all a fanciful crutch, of no relevance to reality, an addiction, ‘opiate of the masses’ for real.

          It’s all untrue. Your vision of yeshua was definitely a hallucination. People have hallucinations, and that’s fine, but it’s not reality. Accept it as that and nothing more.

          There is no heaven nor hell, prayers are categorically unanswered for a reason, like all else, it’s dust in the wind, destined to dissipate. Whatever the universe is, it doesn’t care one wit about you, it’s ruthless, and far vaster than anything that you or I would matter to. We’re destiined to die out as the planet changes, our former atoms splintered as our sun explodes.

          But if it helps you, so be it, just be sure it’s taken at face value, not as doctrine.

          I’m amazed this topic actually got you and others to write, while all the more pressing issues, iissues important to us (and not in the name of god)contemporary issues you report, which so-called Christians should be profoundly interested in, got next to no commentary, year after year.

          For shame people, you are all more concerned with your own salvation than in true Christian values (or Buddhist or any other values). You are all selfish. You are all self-righteous. You are all a symptom of the self-destructive human disease, and will therefore go down with the ark with the rest, no salvation, no reconciliation.

          Question authority, even your preposterous self-invented lemming-like lock-step theorem of ‘god’. Question him even once, and you will see he has no answer and is therefore not there. It was all a myth.

        • It wasn’t a hallucination, I’ve never experienced anything like this before or after.

          It’s not exclusionary, quite the opposite in fact. It’s a free gift, open to all.

          I’m not concerned with my salvation, I’m concerned for those who are not saved, including you.

        • Would you say this to Martin Luther King, Jr?

          “For shame people, you are all more concerned with your own salvation than in true Christian values (or Buddhist or any other values). You are all selfish. You are all self-righteous. You are all a symptom of the self-destructive human disease, and will therefore go down with the ark with the rest, no salvation, no reconciliation.”

          Or Dorothy Day? Or Jeremiah Wright? Or Daniel Berrigan?

        • Got a few others for you:

          Martin Sheen, Cornell West, Maya Angelou, Thomas Merton, Susan B. Anthony, Sojourner Truth, Eldridge Cleaver, and William Penn.

        • Salvation can’t save salvage. We are like scrap iron, it would take a take sculptor to reform us, to re-weld us into some rebirth of human inspiration the believers stole and snuffed.

          We were scrapped by the so-called saved, our simple spirits destroyed by the preposterously pious and their bogus beliefs in pretentious powers. Believers are the ones who massacred the innocents.

          They should have let us be innocent, lovely, creative and alive. Then we would have been saved.

          Generations are destroyed by believers, most of us were born as angels, pure. Some doctrine compelled the corrupt to kill our inspiration. All of the indoctrinated are to blame.

          Pray not for me, plant me under an oak tree so that I may fertilize the real goddess, life on earth.

        • But Natureboy, that is exactly what the Holy Spirit does with us after we accept Jesus as Messiah. It sculpts us into new beings. Neither Rocket nor I are the same people we used to be. And we didn’t change ourselves, but we are changed.

          Our physical bodies will go to replenish the earth (provided we are buried in wooden caskets). It’s our soul/spirit that lives eternally.

          And again, please don’t confuse the messengers with the Message. Jesus does NOT kill. Human beings do.

        • Ah Isaiah~ Beautiful name, even transcribed as this phoneme.

          I have a young cousin of that name, born of sister jew and black baptist magnificent musician (not so young any of us anymore…)

          It is a tragic, cutting swath of prose, powerfully translated.

          For me, at first glance, it means: Do not eat sheep, do not harm sheep, and do not imagine sheep are so stupid to follow, or if they are, encourage them to follow some other path, anything but the flock to the slaughter. Love thy lamb…

          life is hard enough for wild sheep, wonderful (while yet cloven-hooved two-toed ungulate mammalian) fellows.
          Be instead greatful for their fur, and keep them warm after stealing their curls… and above all, NEVER silence a lamb!

          But I imagine I’ll have to read it again.

        • There’s a dose of general social misery in that passage. “for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken”…

          (Ya know, I’ve about had it with iniquities and the arseholes who propagate them… it’s nobody’s ‘transgression’ but theirs, but you can defeat them with success. They suck, and can be beaten, but what a waste of lifetime! But you don’t need the bible to bite back at mean down-presser-man. Believe me, I did it, I know, it sucks. Shittiness is not next to godliness, they are all just idiotic low-life humans, the lesser primates. But this is life, not eden…).

        • Quote: “Please don’t confuse Jesus with some or even many of His followers”.

          We should never confuse anyone with anyone else, but some of his followers have been very true. They nevertheless are not him and should never be confused as if they were him, because we are all [individuals]; just that some or many people are very opaque, say, while others have good listening skills or ability. Like Jesus said when he spoke of letting people with ears, hearts, minds able to hear and listen, he there-in contrasted them to the people who are opposite; can’t hear, listen, see. Some do; many don’t. And many pretend that they do, but clearly don’t. 🙂

        • History is usually news to me, for I know so little about it that when I learn of it, then, well, it’s “news to me”.

          And there’s an awful lot that I am not aware of.

          🙂

  25. Are you all not at all concerned that this is clearly all a bit dated and disproved? Can you please come up with a NEW scripture based on current knowledge which we can actually potentially believe?

    My concern is you don’t have a clue, neither do I, though belief must surely be a blessing in light of the unadulterated alternatives which empirical realists are faced with based on current information…

      • I started two of them and already intolerably sticking in craw.

        Dearest, the first link leads to a pay-page, the second linx to a pay page via narration.

        This is clearly not part of news. Is this what happens when we move to Missouri?

        With all due respect, where this news to broadcast, then perhaps you would upload the appropriate clips and post properly as you rigorously do, like the Lo librarian we know & love?

        Sorry for the scold, but Dandelion Salad maintains its fame by stoically remaining singularly empirical and newsworthy.

        If something has so convinced your latest editor of a historical piece so believable in its newsworthiness, especially regarding such an incendiary & non-empirical topic, I for one feel it could be better broadcast in a different sci-fi/fantasy/blind-believer section than this re-broadcast of an evangelical biblical collection-tray.

        Once again, likely believers are comforted by their beliefs, however disproved and irrational they generally vastly may be, but news is based in facts/reporting on the ground.

        Go beyond that by some disagreeable unevidenced divine decree and you fundamentally undermine the reality news is meant to relay.

        Just the facts, please, or at least the genuine intelligence and introspect. But NEVER blind irrational unevidenced beliefs (and definitely, NEVER link to a contribution page! You are the PhD on never doing that!!)

        As I was the one who suggested you graduate from Myspace and post a more serious newsblog (remember?), I here further suggest you might define a different realm, a differnet blog for this experimental judeo/christian biblical-literalist ideology, and never the two shall twain. (Just my opinion…).

        One is news, one is blind, unverifiable belief, the news is already a debate, but the biblicalistic evangelicalism is destined to undermine the important work here.

        If you blindly believe, then the news is irrelevant. If news is your passion then blind belief cannot jive.

        The two are not remotely compatible, cannot exist even in the same conscientious brain.

        If you believe in both, for our sake, put the Christian thing on some other blog so we can actually watch it on the other news, and realize what’s wrong with amergaah.

        • Dandelion Salad is my personal blog. I can post whatever I like and I do. Fortunately I have many great writers who contribute their work and that keeps me busy most days, but when it’s a slow news day or perhaps over the weekend, I try to fit in videos or articles that aren’t necessarily “the news”. Here’s the description for Dandelion Salad: “Tossed fresh daily with news from around the world and side orders of news videos, music videos, editorials, creative writing, photography and more.”

          This particular post was made on April 25, Sunday.

          The links work, they go to each of the 8 parts of the series. There is a 10 second “ad” at the beginning of each one. I think my readers can handle that, or they can turn off the sound for 10 seconds.

          My extremely strong belief in Y’shua as the Messiah is not an experiment. It’s been over 10 years now that I’ve been a believer.

          Personally, I like that DS has other stuff than just the “news”, like music videos, photography, poetry, etc. It makes a great break from all the usual death and destruction. Hmm, no complaints for those items that I post? What about the gardening videos? Don’t like those either?

          There’s plenty of “news” on DS every day, that anyone who cares to not read or view a gardening video, poetry or a music video can choose not to click to read/view those items.

          As far as the facts go, many if not most of the articles posted here are opinion pieces written by the various Featured Writers.

        • Fair enough. That’s your choice.

          So far y’shua never had a thing to say to anyone I know of, let alone the professedly devout.
          Yet if it helps I’m glad.

          In my experience it’s aall a myth, and bears no relevance. But you seem to have profound personal evidence to the contrary.

          Usually it’s the lesser intellect that falls into the christian hell/heaven/prayer trap, but if you’ve found validity in that , and if it’s helped you prevail and post the news, so be it.

          I’d never dissent your right to write, I can only dissent your points, in this one circumstqnce we seem to disagree.

          Perhaps to my detriment, I’m quite sure jesus is not a messah, he was no buddah, is no longer alive, did not ressurect, and will not come again with fire and ice.

          He was a human, had his things to say. The wars and wealth wrought in his name were enough to look elsewhere for inspiration. Something was wrong with his ideas to beget such a disaster. And they WERE ideas, not divinity.

          If you feel he was god, then stop now, and wait for destiny. You’d need not write blogs, only pray.

        • Dandelion leaves are great in a mixed salad, ya know. If you only eat them with nothing else, then they’re bitter, very; but they’re great in a mix. 🙂

        • Yes, it was off topic, but it was kept short, you chose
          the name for the blog, not I, and dandelion leaves,
          when not treated with man-made poisons, are great
          in salads. And God created dandelions. 🙂

  26. Mike , thank you for your response.
    let us take Jesus of Nazareth as any scholar would in its socio -historical context of the Maria Nostra culture of first century Hellenized Judaism .
    1. Only God can forgive sins
    2. The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath
    3. some woshipped him but others doubted
    4. ..and the healed leper worshipped him
    5. John 8:58 – ”Before Abraham was born , I AM ” ( this was taken directly from Exodus 3:14 where God sais to Moses ”I am THAT i AM ” ( Ego eminia ) .
    6. ”for a good work we do not seek to stone you , but becuase you as a man make yourself out to be God ”.
    7. ”which one of you convicts me of sin ”?
    8.”in the begginning was the WORD and the Word was with God , and the Word was God . and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us ”.
    9. ”i am the way , the truth , and the life ”.

    these are just a few examples . look them up at your own leisure. in that strict Jewish cultrue they knew exactly what he was claiming . that is why they put a price on his head . only God can forgive sins , is Lord of the Sabbath , say ” I AM , claim to be THE TRUTH , The Life ,claims to be sinless , and recieves worship . if he was not divine , those who worshipped him , he would have said like Peter did in the book of Acts , ;”dont worship me , i am only a man ”. but the text said that he did not .

    in regards to him praying to God the Father , this is called tri-unity . the persons of the Godhead are paradoxically ONE and yet different in their manifestations ( in Platonic terminoliogy –”eminations ”).The sacrficial part of the tri-unne God is also the spoken part of it . hence true speaking is a libation . cosmicailly speaking the epistle of Peter hits the nail on the head when it says ”he was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world ” .

    One cannot have the faith ”of ”Jesus until one has faith ”in” Jesus as the sacrifice for sin , and that sacrfice must be perfect . man sinned . there was never a man perfect enough to atone for the sin . so God ttok upon Himslef human flesh and becmae the perfect sacrifice to open the door for man and God to be re-united . this is the messianic vision that more and more jews are waking up to daily .

    as far as the gnositic concepts of this good news –weather they be Carpecradian , Valateenian , or Manicheean , the Gnostics could not understand the idea of God taking human form becuase they saw all matter as evil . but if you check out ElainE PAGEL’S ”the Gnostic Paul ” another vision emerges of the secret knowledge of the paradox of the God-man . MY testimony is on line if you google my name in . it is called ”THE CROSSING ”.

    as Jesus said ”know man knows me , except the Father reveal it ”. I thought he was a grreat man , an Avatar , but not God until 36 years ago .

    • Quote:

      “2. The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath
      3. some woshipped him but others doubted
      4. ..and the healed leper worshipped him”

      Re. 2

      Jesus did not say that he was Lord. One or more of the Gospel texts tell us that he said that there is only one Lord and that He is God; and that only He is to be worshipped, This is the Father who sent Jesus, Jesus said. What Gospel writers otherwise mistakingly wrote or what translators, … have mistakingly mis-translated or transcribed is not of his fault and doesn’t reflect what the Gospel texts say about his first words. If he was self-contradictory, then he needs to take some tranquilizers or get some help from a psychologist or psychiatrist, but I don’t think he’s the source of the errors or contradictions.

      Re. 3., “some woshipped him but others doubted”

      So what. Some people worship the hypocrite and war-profiteer John Wayne.

      Re. 4., “and the healed leper worshipped him””

      NO, he didn’t heal the lepers and the Gospels don’t say that he ever claimed the contrary. Instead, he told the ten lepers to go show or present themselves to the priests, Jewish priests and when one of these then former lepers realised that he was healed, he returned to where Jesus was, to thank him for the healing, treating him like the source of the healing. And Jesus told the man to stop worshiping or thanking him, but to thank God, the Father, who sent Jesus to teach, as messenger, and that it’s through faith in God that this man was healed.

      Jesus took absolutely NO credit in that miracle, and the same is true in other miracles he’s associated with. He never pretended to be more than Messenger of God; a very direct messenger. We, humans, can be messngers of God when what we say is in conformance with His will and way, but we are not direct messengers. The whole life, existence of Jesus, according to scripture, was to be Messenger of God; directly, specifically sent for this purpose.

      The closest we can get to what he was first said to have said, however, requires being able to read in Hebrew and Greek, and having access to the original writings, which barely anyone does.

      But we can be reasonably confident of some things. F.e., Mary, the blessed mother of Jesus is and never was Mother of God, and Jesus never was or will be God. He said that after his return to heaven he’d be found at the side of God; not in place of Him. I don’t make much fuss over people refering to Jesus as Lord though, for even if he said that only God, the Father, is Lord, it’s understandable that people can think of God sharing His throne with Jesus, f.e. I won’t “split hairs” over this matter, but do point out that Jesus did say that only God the Father is Lord.

      If the religion is true, then Mary only gave birth to the Messenger of God and NOT to God, Himself. God is present in our world in ways most people don’t notice, but he’s never and never will be born or exist in human or any other living form. People who believe the contrary really need to stop watching Disney fantasy stories.

      Anyway, Jesus told the healed leper to not thank him, but, instead, to thank God the Father; and that it’s through religious faith that the healing was obtained, sincere religious faith. The other nine lepers, like Jesus said, “where are they?” (paraphrased). Only one of the ten was alert and wise enough to return to the source of the healing, instead of continuing onward to present himself to other priests, but Jesus made it clear that this healed leper was thanking the wrong Person, too.

      Quote: “5. John 8:58 – ”Before Abraham was born , I AM ” ( this was taken directly from Exodus 3:14 where God sais to Moses ”I am THAT i AM ” ( Ego eminia ) ”

      It seems related to people saying that Jesus is the Word of God, which, if I’m not mistaken, relates back to the Book of Genesis, wherein it says that when God spoke, the universe came to be. This can be easily confounded with Jesus being God, because, as Messenger of God’s choosing, Jesus, in this world, became Word of God; for believers, anyway, or that is. But this does not necessarily mean that Jesus is God. As already said, he was sent, expressly, as messenger or teacher, but he said and left clearly inferred many times that he was not God.

      Because of his intelligence, he was capable of teaching the way and will of God without being God, and like Jesus said, he’ll be found at the side of God, the Father. We can alternatively think of God as Mother, for he lacks no qualities, too; but I use Father because it’s what scripture uses. God’s love is perfect, lacking no qualities. We’re the ones who lack; not Him.

      And it takes a fool to believe that if God is real, then He’d fix, say, our world’s problems. To do that would be highly in contrast to the God that Jesus taught about and represented, so no Christian can lucidly epect God to repair this world damaged because of hellishly greedy, usurous, psychopathic “leaders” of politics of gov’t and corporations. If God was to repair this, then the “Way of the Cross” for Jesus would be a total waste for a messenger of God. That is, God, through Jesus, taught that we must take on our individual and social, as well as political, responsibilities.

      Of course how each of us sees to these responsibilities vary, for personalities vary. F.e., some people may not have it in them to publicly speak out, but nevertheless understand and privately support people who do speak out; and then we have the latter, the activists. For me, it’s like when Jesus was on the Cross and said that the people who weren’t against him were for him. Who are these people he was refering to? Well, there were his allies and friends who were presenti during his persectution, but there were surely people who weren’t present there, yet nevertheless knew of what was happening and stayed home, all while hoping the best for Jesus. These people might not have been able to be present where the persecution was happening, or they might have prefered to not be there for their own safety, or …, but whatever the reason was, they nevertheless were not supportive of the persecution.

      There is not an instance of good will that will go unnoticed to God! He does not watch Disney, although He knows what is produced by that evidently Zionist and brainwashing or dumbing-down company.

      Quote: “6. ”for a good work we do not seek to stone you , but becuase you as a man make yourself out to be God ”.”

      That’s human interpretation. Jesus made it clear that he was Messenger of God, a teacher, never having said that he was or is God. Just because humans screw things up doesn’t mean that God or Jesus did!

      Quote: “7. ”which one of you convicts me of sin ”?”

      Well, if he had committed no sins, then he could have easily posed that question; but he also defended Mary Magdellon against the hypocritical persecution against her just because she was a little sexually active, say, and he also taught that it is essential to remove the logs out of our own eyes before pretending that we can remove grains of sand from the eyes of other people.

      Quote 7’s words, iow, certainly do not illustrate that Jesus was pretending to be more than Messenger of God, teacher of God’s will and way(s).

      Quote: “8.”in the begginning was the WORD and the Word was with God , and the Word was God . and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us ”.”

      Good, but as already stated, Jesus said there’s only one Lord and that He is the Person who sent Jesus, as messenger, to teach the Word of God. A person can expertly teach a particular topic without being the founder!

      Jesus clearly indicated that he is NOT God and that disciples are his brothers and sisters with the same Father! All other interpretations confound his most fundamental, essential, basic teachings, and you might disagree, but Jesus was neither a hypocrite nor self-contradictory, imo.

      And quote #8 does not come from the Gospels or any other texts written as of or after the birth, … of Jesus. Quote #8 comes from the Old Testament, and real Christians must focus on the New. Wherein the OT supports the NT,fine, but as soon as there’s any contradiction, then Christians must or should decide whether they are Jewish or Christian. For as long as the latter permit the OT to override the NT, they clearly are NOT Christian! I don’t have any problem with people being Jewish, Muslim, etcetera, as long as it is not in the psychopathic and false ways of Israel’s leadership and the Israeli lobbieis that are supported by hellbent idiot Zionist so-called Christians in the USA. In that case, I become annoyed, to say the least.

      I will not let any Americans distort the understanding of Christianity as far as I am concerned. I can’t prevent people from being false or inadequately educated Christians, but they’re certainly not going to redefine scripture or the meaning of it for me,

      Jesus said that he is NOT Lord and his word is better than of anyone who wishes to try to pretend that the contrary is true. People who disagree while claiming or mis-believing being Christian really need to switch to being Jews. Then I could understand but not otherwise.

      Fundamentally, I stick to the words that Jesus stated, and these unfortuantely are not recordings that he made, but those I pay attention to make sense. He said that his disciples are brothers (and sisters) with the same Father. What more do we want for evidence? I want and seek no more, and would never want to waste my time trying. He was and remains right.

      The scientific Law of Causality is real and is based on measured reality. Now since God is the origin of all of this, why would He be prejudiced against anyone of good will and way? He wouldn’t be and isn’t.

      See the story of the Good Samaritan, that hearted pagan who had to go and prove or demonstrate that institutionalized religion is a lot of poppy crap.

      • Actually, quote #8 might very well come from the New Testament, the Gospels or another part of the NT. Re-reading the words, I think they do come from the NT.

        However, we must be careful about everything Jesus is said to have said, for the second that he is contradicting himself, we must determine what the reason for the contradiction is. If he really did contradict himself, then we can easily bypass him, but if his words were misinterpreted, whatever, then we would ideally learn about this then provable fact. I don’t know the cause of the apparent contradiction and, therefore, only propose scientifcally, say, careful analysis.

        The second that he literally, really contradicts himself is the second to stop believing that he’s who the Gospels say that he is.

        In the NT, we have some writings of so-called apostle Paul, the then former persecutioner and massacerer of the first Christians, and hardly anything his texts say refer to Jesus, and he never personally knew Jesus. According to credible Gnostic writings, the first Christians wanted nothing to do with Paul. They feared him and for good reason, and had no real reason to believe the story about the purported angelic release from Roman prison, which, if we consider in today’s “light”, seems like another gov’t ploy to try to fool oppressed people.

        Today, before a church accepts to say that a miraculous event has happened, serious and over-serious inquiry is required; and in some caes, the church leaders don’t want to even try to make any effort. There is a story or two of around 1984 that I read about having happened in Argentina at ForteanTimes.com. It’s a website that i hardly ever pay any attention to, but did for a little while several years ago and came across the 1984, or so, story and it’s one that happens to be highly fitting with reality.

        “Blood, sweat and tears: Living stigmatics”, Oct. 2002

        http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/224/blood_sweat_and_tears_living_stigmatics.html

        What one of the two stigmatics the above article is about is therein said to have said that Jesus warned about the darkness overtaking the world is rather unquestionably true. That is, yes, definitely, darkness has been growing over our world. Thiscan and often does require explanation for many people to understand, but this is not difficult to provide. It requires time, but is not difficult.

        There are more “stigmatics” articles at FT, btw. I haven’t used the website for years, though did seldomly check. Most of the time, it has nothing I’m particularly interested in. But in doing a Web search to see if the above article is still available, I could see that there are other articles about stigmatics and I’d like to take some time out to see what these say. But the above article was, for one of the two stigmatics anyway, verified by a local or regional bishop; some clergical official anyway. And the Vatican evidently wanted nothing to do with this.

        If that was due to one of the two stigmatists saying that Jesus said that darkness was overtakng our world, then it’s understandable. After all, the Vatican is quite enmeshed with corporate, imperialist,. … elites. I’m not sure, but believe that there is no way that the Vatican will act or speak in ways seriously contrary to the whims of the corporate, etcetera, elites. The Vatican is not human. It’s an institution.

        Like Jesus sad, [all] human institutions will fail, and none have succeeded in proving that he was wrong. NO human institution has succeeded in not failing All have, all do. And it’s expectable. After all, human institutions are started and managed by many individuals, and every one of us can fail or err. The more of us there are working together, the more likely the end result will consist of flaws.

        Anyway, Jesus never said that he’s God or Lord, and I stick to this. Jesus is special, but neither God nor Lord. Though I also have the habit of referring to him as Lord, I nevertheless know that it’s not quite exact, say. Breaking the habit, totally, well, I have quite reached total. Haveing been brought up learning Lord Jesus …, it’s a little difficult to quickly dispense with this.

        He’s a Messenger of God; instead of being God.

        So #8 is easily understood in this manner. More than this requires a lot more critically objective analysis. The second that Jesus evidently contradicted himself permits everyone to disregard him, totally.

        As is common in the U.S., I don’t think the messenger scewed up. I think people who pretend to be able to competently re-state what the messengers said screw up. It’s awfully easy to scew up. It’s easy to mis-state our own views; all the easier to mis-represent the views and words of other people.

        Jesus is not God, in any case. If this is not true, then he had a highly repretitive habit of misriepresenting himself; but he didn’t mis-rep. hmself. Only other people do.

      • Mike , your response is weak at best. and i never brought Paul into the picture. we are sticking with the gospels.

        1. Luke 5:21 — ”and the lawyers and Pharisees said who is this man think he is to forgive sins . only God can forgive sins ”. in the context of that orthodox Jewish culture they knew what Jesus was saying when he forgave the man’s sins . he claiming to be God . look Mike , i have been to the most orthodox university in America called Yeshiva . they know what he claimed. this cannot be watered down . it is an either/or proposition . you don’t believe me , go to the Hasidic Lubavitch Orthodox community and ask them who has the power to forgive sins . they will tell you –ONLY GOD . that is why they reject Jesus ( Yeshua ).

        2. John 8:58 ”before Abraham was born I AM ” . the question they asked him just before that when he said that Abraham rejoiced to see my day and was glad , was ”just who do you make yourself out to be ?” JUST WHO DO MAKE YOURSELF OUT TO BE ?”!!!! then he tells them ”before Abraham was born I AM ”. they knew and still know that he was claiming to be the pre-existent God who spoke to Moses on the mountain . Because it is exactly taken from Exodus 3:14.

        3.John 20:28 ”MY LORD AND MY GOD” . this was said by doubting Thomas directly to Jesus HIMSELF . he fell to his feet when he saw him in the risen state. mike , that is what happened to me . you will never see his divinity until you let go of your unbelief and allow himself to reveal himself to you .

        4. ”some worshiped , but others doubted”. Matthew 28:17 . again mike , ask any devout Jew about this passage. if Jesus was not divine , he would have said ”get up at once ! i am not God . worship only Him ”. but he didn’t say that . he received the worship and said ”ALL power has been given to me in heaven and on earth ”.

        one of the problems in this discussion is that we are not in that world and taking things in context as to how radical Jesus really was. that is why , since we don’t have a time machine , the best we can do is go to the nearest orthodox Jewish community and ask them . this is the main reason that they have rejected him historically to this very day . the divinity of Christ is a deliberate stumbling block . but , you either fall on it and become broken before God and re-born , or he will fall on you at the day of judgment and there will be no hope forever . it is an either/or proposition . God came in the flesh incognito . that is THE OFFENSE . one must pass thru the offense to be saved , or else remain offended by the message.

        • Quote: “Mike , your response is weak at best. and i never brought Paul into the picture. we are sticking with the gospels.

          1. Luke 5:21 — ”and the lawyers and Pharisees said who is this man think he is to forgive sins . only God can forgive sins ”. in the context of that orthodox Jewish culture they knew what Jesus was saying when he forgave the man’s sins . he claiming to be God . look Mike , i have been to the most orthodox university in America called Yeshiva . they know what he claimed …”

          NOPE. What you really have there is an [interpretation], and if your interpretation is true, then Jesus contradicted himself and also did something that is NOT credible, which is for God to have made Himself born as a human being. God never made and never will make Himself born as a human! Forget that fantasy.

          Neither of those things happened. What happened is misinterpretation or exaggerated understanding of what Jesus is said to have said. According to Gospels in the West anyway, and this goes for both French and English, Jesus never claimed that he was the sole source of absolution of sins. He said that God can and will absolve, forgive sins of true repentants, but always related that he was a servant of God and that absolution of sins really was and is only from God. Jesus was a teacher and advocate for us, iow; an intermediary sent to TEACH, and was therefore authorized to provide the promise of absolutions for true repentants. It’s not that Jesus was the provider of the absolutions. He only provided the teaching that God will and does absolve true repentants of their or our sins; besides the many other things that Jesus taught about God.

          Jesus is not and never was God and the sooner that Westerners give up this mis-belief the better, because it’s a belief that only makes Christianity non-credible for intelligent persons People who like to spend their time with Disney might think otherwise, but realistic people can’t be expected to believe that Jesus was more than a Messenger God; and many people already have difficulty with this. Alka-seltza doesn’t help.

          If God is going to try to communicate to all people of good will and conduct, peace makers, etcetera, then He knows that He must do this in a way that is sufficiently credible, but this is not what you describe. God does not need to appear in human form to convince us. Even the scientific Law of Causality tells us that God, Creator, must exist! That law, however, does not tell us anything about His ethics, so He needed to send a Messenger, Teacher, aka Messiah, in His name; and Jesus stood true to this calling to the very end, fully, but was not God.

          God is present in this world, alright; definitely. But never it’s in human form. He can act through people highly “in tune”, say, with Him, but He will never be and has never been present as a human person. Jesus was.

          And Judaism is much based on prior religions, btw.

          I don’t have a problem with that for my thinking abilities are very dexterile, say. That Judaism was very much based on prior religions doesn’t bother me, for they all provide a common basis, and then I can do my learning of what Jesus is said to have said, and go on from there. I do not expect to find that there are no similarities. As Scripture says, the soul is from God, and God created humans in His likeness. Etcetera. Expound from that and you quickly arrive at the understanding that God can be and is evidently present in some non-Christians, and very absent from many people who (falsely) claim to be Christian.

          The second we give up [individuality], we die; our lives become worthless, meaningless, and often troublesome (in bad ways). I’m not a conformist, but a [thinker]. Such people are troublesome to the ruling elites, but they are the ones who are wrong!

          You refer to a community of orthodox Jews and what they say is fine, fitting, but you evidently forget that every miracle that Jesus is said to have performed is an act that he always said to never thank him for. Instead, he always said to thank God the Father, who Jesus had many-times said sent him to teach and show the way to be with God. Similarly, when Jesus spoke of absolution of sins! Why would Jesus have taken a contradictory approach regarding sins from miraculous healings? He would not have, if the Gospels are right about who he is, which is Messenger, Teacher, ….

          He always emphasized that he was acting and speaking in the name of God, the Father, rather than pretending to be Him! The same applied with absolution of sins! Yes, Jesus had the religious authority to teach that God would forgive sins of true repenters, but never said that it was Jesus himself who granted this absolution as if he and God, the Father, had a disagreement about this. Jesus never is said to have done or said anything in disagreement with God. Au contraire, he always emphasized to speak for God, because He had sent Jesus for this purpose.

          Perhaps the or a problem is whether we are literalists or dexterile in our thinking and reading. I prefer to be a dextile reader. Literalism misses an awful lot of important substance and I don’t wish to miss this.

          Quote: “2. John 8:58 ”before Abraham was born I AM ””

          So what. That does not illustrate that Jesus is God. What it can illustrate is that while Jesus is not God, God created Jesus before Abraham was born. This is no feat for God to accomplish, and Jesus never pretended to be God!

          Quote: “3.John 20:28 ”MY LORD AND MY GOD” . this was said by doubting Thomas directly to Jesus HIMSELF”

          So what. Thomas is not God and he isn’t Jesus, and got some other things a little misconstrued. Just because an apostle said something that gives the impression that they believed that Jesus was or is God does not mean that it’s true.

          When you stop worshipping apostles and their words, then you’ll come to the path of real Christianity. Until then, you remain a [junior] American who says to be Christian.

          When you read about Francis of Assisi, the or one of the very few sainted people of the RCC recognized as saints in Orthodox Christianity, then you see no or almost no mention of any of the apostles. Instead, Francis was focused on Jesus and God.

          This was true for me before coming to know of Francis, and it’s what I recommend for everyone. Sure, I rely on the Gospels, but my only real concern is what is said to be reported or citied from the words of Jesus. The rest, I can do without. I have no need for anything other than the words of Jesus. I don’t care about Paul, except for disliking some of his anti-christ teachings, which bother me, and don’t really care about the real apostles. Jesus, what he did and said is what is important to me.

          The rest, I don’t care about.

          From there, I will think for myself. I don’t need apostles or anyone else to think for me and anyone who tries to pretend that they can do this will meet a wall.

          Apostles are not Jesus. He gave a good illustration of this too. F.e., he once asked some of the apostles when they could know that they were exrecising real discernment. Three apostles repliedl, one after the other, with a few words from Jesus each time. The first (or second, not sure of the right order, here) said when he could tell the difference between night and day. Jesus said no; not the right answer. The second said when he could distinguish between wolves and sheep, and Jesus again said no. The third evidently had time to wise up based on the first two failing and simply sad that he didn’t know the answer, and asked Jesus, since he evidently knew, what the answer was.

          I’m forgetting what Jesus then replied, but that story nevertheless illustrated that the apostles were and are not perfect, and it’s primordial for us to realise this.

          Is ths not taught in regular courses on or in (of) Christian religion? If it is not, then it’s a serious mistake to not provide this.

          We don’t have to pay attention to anything any of the Apostles wrote besides what they cited from Jesus. If we need other people to do our thinking, for us, then we may as well forget about being religious, imo. The Good Samaritan was not
          Christian, but was more Christian than most westerners pretend
          to be!

          Quote: “4. ”some worshiped , but others doubted”. Matthew 28:17 . again mike , ask any devout Jew about this passage. if Jesus was not divine , he would have said ”get up at once ! i am not God . worship only Him ”. but he didn’t say that”

          Actually, he did say that, but maybe it depends on which version of the Bible that you read. The most credible versions, however, have him repeatedly reminding, expressly and through inference, that he was NOT God the Father, who, in these Bible versions, Jesus had always said was Father and sent him to teach.

          So your arguments are clearly biased and unthorough; biased on Bible version, and that’s only if any versions support what you claim, and unthorough, because you take something some Orthodox Jews say about absolution and claim a conclusion that is not really found in what you say that they said. You do or don’t realise this, but you go [beyond] with speculations in both cases.

          It might not matter to you, and it doesn’t matter to me, for you’ve illustrated nothing to alter my beliefs or views, but people reading and hearing things like you stated should also receive juxtoposite analysis, say. It’s elementary to illustrate that you make [assumptions] based on what others have said.

          I try to stick with what the Gospels say that Jesus said. The rest is secondary or discardable. His words, alone, are what I care about, and from the English and French versions of the Gospels that I have learned from, you’re very mistaken. But you’re American and I’ve become quite accustomed to Americans being [often] wrong about many things; and the few Americans who stand out are hardly ever heard from, unfortunately. There are some real intellectuals in the U.S., but we hardly, rarely hear or read from them. Maybe they don’t have suicidal wishes, say, or just don’t think that most people are ready, prepared to receive what they can say. I don’t know why they’re silent, but have come to be made aware that there are some brilliant intellectuals in the U.S. and that they are very silent. There’s a reason for that silence, but what it is is something I can only guess about.

          The same thing is true of some cardinals, etcetera, in the churches. Their silence makes the churches seem worse than they really are. I listened to an intenet, internet-recommunicated statement from an evidently great cardinal of the RCC a few years ago, or so, but didn’t catch his name. What he said should be restated again, and again, …; but the most wise and fair members of the church seem to be abstent, mostly. Perhaps they just want to avoid causing church scandals or being excomm’d, or assassinated, but their words should be re-stated publicly on a regular basis.

          The Jews are right. Only God can absolve sins. But Jesus never pretended to be God and he often made the distinction clear. This is where westerners get confused; forgetting the distinction(s) that Jesus provided.

          When the ten lepers asked him for healing and one returned to worship Jesus, He said to reserve this worship for God the Father who had sent Jesus!

          What Bible version do you read?

        • mike , i read just about every version i can get my hands on , but i like the new american standard the best,. also , i like the new revised standard for real scholarly accuracy .

          mike , when is the last time you actually sat down and talked to a real practicing orthodox jew about Jesus ? they will tell you exactly who he claimed to be . and remember , the Gnostics believed he was divine too , and not created. that is why they could not accept his humanity , because they would never accept that God would incarnate into evil matter. there are many gnostic gospels that will confirm this. many .

          When Peter of Abelard was put on trial by the Pope in Rome for heresy in the middle ages , he said ”God can become an ant , and he does not need the Church’s permission ”

          let us look at that statement . you are saying that there is no way that God could become human . but mike , who are you to say he cant ? you are not God . God can be utterly transcendent and also immanent paradoxically at the same time . after all , we are talking about THE SUPREME BEING . he does not need your permission . GOD is sovereign . but , by you stating that he God cannot become human , you are positing self sovereignty over God Almighty . pretty presumptuous , dont you think ?

          you will never get Christ true message until you realize that the messenger is the message and that he is more than just a teacher . more than just a man . he is the God -man . God terminology is not just restricted to God the Father . remember God the Son ? God the Spirit . ? The Son of God is God the Son .

        • one more thing . do you read the new world translation bible ? i have the feeling ( correct me if i am wrong ) that you are a Jehovah’s witness . they always deny that Jesus is the Lord . they think that he is Micheal the Archangel from Daniel 12:2.

          that is why they dont know Christ personally . there is no way to know Jesus Christ personally until you know him as divine .

        • I’m not Jehovah or anything of the lite. I worked on farm in the early 1980s and there was a co-worker who was very Jehovah. I had a couple of cousins who got suckered into the Jehovahs and whose wives refused to separate when my cousins did. But I have never been JW or anything of the like.

          I am, however, critically objective, which is a seldom trait among Americans.

          Re. “Micheal the Archangel from Daniel 12″, I don’t know of any individual. I had learned of Michael the Archangel, but never Micheal, and I know awfully little about Michael. I never learned more about that angel or so-called angel than takes to …, well, I prefer to eat my cereal, let’s say.

          I need to head out and get more cereal, really, and come to think of it. This time, I think that I will go for granola again. Sounds good to me, anyway.

          Quote: that is why they dont know Christ personally . there is no way to know Jesus Christ personally until you know him as divine”.

          Yah, people on LSD can probably say the same thing. Funny thing happened along the way. It didn’t involve LSD or special mushrooms, etcetera. It just so happened that one morning I was talking to God about all of the problems that I could think of in this world, because there are plenty, and He unloaded more bad news. Good News evidently isn’t always of Good kind. Well, no one can claim that God does not stay up to date with current events, and future ones; and if we ask Him, even uwittingly, then we may get the Bad. I got the Bad.

          I wasn’t talking [with] God, I was talking [to] Him, and He sort of unloaded …; bad news. And He was clearly right. It was a [little] dificult for digestistion, but He was right. It took me some months to come over this, but, heh, when you ask for something serious from Him, then He can tell us a lot. Don’t ask for what you don’t want; because God is aware of a lot that we normally would prefer to not know about. There is nothing that can escape Him and it’s understandable that we could prefer to not know about some of this, but we need to know about it no matter how much it “tears us”, say. I chose to speak to HIm and got Bad News, and He wasn’t wrong.

          Everything I saw has been reality, fulfilled. He knew what the planners had in mind and what they had arranged to implement.

          I knew beforehand that 9/11 was screwed up, couldn’t be what GW etcetera pretended that it was and I hadn’t even yet known that 1995 was an inside job and that 1993 was primarily an inside job; though knew the 1999 war on Kosovo was gangsterism. I knew about the latter, but not the other stories. Now I know about all of them.

          God is not playing around when He tells us these things. He doesn’t provide all of the details, but nevertheless enough to be difficult to digest.

          I could, can render what this was graphically and just haven’t, yet. Would it make a difference if I did? If it’d seriously help, then I’d do it, but I believe that it would make hardly any difference today, so I don’t assign myself the task of specially making up this 3D rendition. It’d preferably be 4D, to include time,
          but that can be workable with fewer dimensional frames. Nevertheless, 4D would be ideal. I could provide the whole “works”, as long as I can reasonably draw, and if I can’t do that, then I could tell someone who can what to draw. Either way, I could provide what I saw.

          No one would like that, but many people probably woud appreciate it.

          I am no Jehovah, but you’re probably American. A co-worker on a strawberry farm in the early 1980s was Jehovah, but some cousins had also made the mistake of going into JH, I and no other relatives did. This co-worker in the early 1980s wanted me to try to help with some mechanical work for the tractor, but I knew nothing of the kind and told him so. My cousins who had gone into JH, I knew nothing of them until they scrammed from JH.

          Most Amreicans have little for real education. Most make assumptions based on [air].

          Get a grip. You’re losing touch with reality; or you already have. Try to stay in the real world.

        • Jesus said that only God the Father who sent thim to teach is Lord. So not only JWs say he is not Lord and it’s probably rare that anyone who errs, which we all do, makes only errors. I make errors, but not only; thank goodness. I don’t associate with JWs and have found enough of them to be quite fanatical; in a mean way.

          Anyway, Jesus never said that he is God. He said that he is “one writh God”, the Father, and the Holy Spirit, but this is about union, instead of being the same Person. Their union is perfect and basically total, but not as a single Person.

          He said this enough times. In some cases it was explicit, while others were through what his words inferred, clearly inferred. He didn’t suffer from dual-peronality disorder, but we can lack logic. And some people only read literally, while other people can see inferred expansion (say) of what’s said.

          As for the Book of Daniel, or whatever it’s called, in the Old Testament, I don’t use this, and his apocalypse is believed to possibly not have even existed, according to some Jewish scholars anyway, scholars on or in the Jewisih religion, . I don’t know what the truth is about this, but they or some of them have argued that the Apocalypse of Daniel was evidently or provably written after all of the events described in this text had happened, so it was really historical hind-sight and not prophecy. But some of these people say that based on the estimated date or year, decade, whatever, for the writing of this text, it was written when Daniel would’ve been around 400 (if not more) years old and that while many people purportedly lived into their 200s at that time, no one has ever been known to have lived as long as Daniel would’ve had to if he wrote this text according to the estimated date of its writing.

          That text, however, apparently is correct from a historical perspective.

          And Jesus is not an angel, but Archangel Michael obviously is; assuming he even exists. I don’t know if he exists and don’t know if any other angels exist, but God certainly could have created angels if He wanted to. I don’t doubt their existence, but also don’t know that they really exist; and it’s not a primary part of my religious beliefs.

          When you get to Heaven, then you’ll be able to know with certainty about the angels and archangels.

          I stick mostly to the Gospels, though will also accept read read some other parts of the New Testament. The Ten Commandments and some other parts of the Old Testament are religiously fine and good, but there’re also what arguably are metaphors in the OT and these texts should not be taken literally. Creation according to Genesis is okay in terms of God being Creator, for this is even inherently supported with the Scientific Law of Causality. But I certainly don’t believve that Eve was created from one of Adam’s ribs; etcetera. She would’ve surely been created or come to be through God’s Laws of Nature, as Adam was. A “little” mysoginy got thrown in by the writer.

          Other texts of the New Testament by the original apostles are different, but I mostly stick to their Gospels and, I guess, some of their Epistles. I’m not sure that Paul was a real apostle, but won’t elaborate on this in order to keep this post from growing too long. The Book of Revelations is not canonized and apparently was not written by apostle John. I don’t really buy into the heinousness or vengefulness against Jews in that Book.

          It’s descriptions of what may have been a vision of the UN hell-keeping forces, aka peacekeeping, but clearly not for that purpose, are very interesting, but I don’t buy into the vengefulness against Jews. Jesus was friends with some Jews and wasn’t at all vengeful towards them. He said that he came to show, teach The Way to be united with God, but wasn’t vengeful towards innocent people who didn’t believe he was Messiah. He was angry about hypocrites wanting to lapidate Mary Magdellan and about usurers in the temple, but wasn’t vengeful towards innocent people; wasn’t even angry about people innocently not believing he was Messiah.

          He said, “Let those with ears to listen hear”, “Let people who wish to listen (to me) come and hear”, …, paraphrased. When he said these things, he didn’t speak spitefully towards people who did not come. People were free to go listen to him and free to not go. We must love our neighbours, he said.

          I am not and don’t want to be prejudiced. Jesus was discriminatory against evil, but any sane person also is.

          Some parts of the Old Testament are fine or good, but some of the rest is very much metaphor and, therefore, should not be literally believed; not with a closed mind, anyway. If we believe those texts or passages, then we should nevertheless do this while understanding that the texts might be wrong in a literal sense, but very right metaphorically. Creation according to Genesis doesn’t make sense, but is right, I believe, about God being Creator. How He Created, however, is another matter and it’s not described in the Book of Genesis.

          The Apocalypse of Daniel might not have been written by him at all, he might not have even existed, at the time this text was written anyway, and it arguably was not prophecy. Instead, some scholars in Judaism have said all of these things and that Daiel would’ve been around or over 400 years old when the text was written, according to the dates these people say the text was written. They say that people lived into their 200s back then, but not four centuries. They added that the text was based on historical hind-sight and not prophecy.

          Some parts of the OT call upon Jews to commit bloody and vicious genocide, and claim that God gave this order, which is something the God of Jesus would never do; neither past, present or future. He’d have to be self-contradictory if He ordered anyone to cold-bloodely attack and kill others, and one or more of these OT texts say to brutally kill women, children and elderly people.

          The story of Job is good. The story about the Jewish prophetess who believed God was speaking to her and she asked Him to, instead, speak within the inner part of her ear, having said that it’s a place that God reserves for only Him being able to speak to humans; this is a great story. There are other very good parts the OT, but not all of it is.

          And people must understand that it’s people who wrote the Bible texts and not God. To err is human. God doesn’t err, but also doesn’t prevent people from erring.

          Jesus said to stop doing some things prescribed in some parts of the OT, like “eye for an eye” and sacrificing animals to worship God, f.e. But he supported good parts of the OT. He said he didn’t come to change the Law, but it’s not
          the whole OT. We can use these examples from him to be able to discern what other parts of the OT we should not believe or should not adopt.

          Apostle Paul got some things wrong. He blatantly contradicted teachings of Jesus two or more times and we should be alert about this. F.e., he repeated the condemnation of the OT, some part of it, that said it’s an abomination for men to have long hair and women short hair. Jesus said to not judge based on apparences. Paul also said that if we wish to be loyal go God, then we must be loyal to state, obedient. If we take that literally and for what it also infers, then it includes obediently being war–makers instead of the “Blessed peace makers”, who inherently must also be justice makers. Americans would also be anti-Constitutional, and citizens of countries of which gov’ts ratified or have become members of the UN and its Charter would also be wrong. No, Paul was wrong!

          In all of the texts said to have been by him, many of which are believed to have actually been recorded by the detailed, historian apostle Luke make little mention of Jesus, who Paul never personally knew.

          The Book of Revelations, based on some experts in or on writing, was evidently not written by apostle John. It’s also not canon, and I don’t buy the vengefulness Jesus is depicted of having in that Book against Jews. Jesus was not an adversary of Jews; not innocent ones. He opposed some Pharisaic hyporcrites who wanted to lapidate Mary Magdellan. He, in good energetic fashion, threw usurers out of a temple. But there were Jews who also disagreed with this hypocrisy and usury, among other unjust acts or ways and Jesus was not against these Jews.

          The Book of Rev. gives me the impression that the writer, who experts say was another guy named John, a very commo name at the time of apostle John, well, gives me the impressio of having consumed a few too many magical mushrooms while having also been angry about Jewish discrimination against Christians, f.e.

          The part of the text that seems to speak, prophetically, of rUN “peacekeeping” forces working for imperialists, etcetera, is interesting, but I don’t think this non-canon Book is necessary. It isn’t necessary to be Christian and the Book is abusively used by right-wing lunatic American “Christians” to support wiked Zionism that many Jews are opposed to. Many religious Jews believe in Zionism, but NOT with violence, etcetera. Instead, they wait for when God will return the Holy Land to them in God’s way, only.

          I don’t believe in that Biblical promise or story. God would surely not make one area of the Earth holy while the rest is unholy. Genesis says that God Created everything, the universe, and deemed that what He did was Good. If something is Good in God’s eyes, then humans can consider it holy.

          King David became a nutcase too. He became a downright violent lunatic. But there’s evidently more or much more to learn from scholars about him. I don’t know what it all consists of, but read a little over the past few months about Israel never really having become as large, area-wise, as many people have apparently claimed or mis-claimed. And the area did not consist of only Jews.

          We only know the limited and sometimes distorted information that scholars have provided based on their studies and researh, and what they provide is surely not complete.

          The teachings of Jesus, however, are sane and if something is sane, then it is good. I don’t want to believe in a God different from the one that the real or else mythological Jesus taught about. I can’t imagine a better God.

          Some people claim Jesus is a myth based on ancient Egyptian religion, but of what I’ve viewed with a couple of videosk, there is not sufficient evidence for this perception. The work is not complete, imo; and to prove Jesus is a myth requires being very thorough about this. A lot of people pretend that they can debunk Christian religion, but I’ve seen nothing thorough for this, yet. Questions remain about what they present and omit.

          So, no, I’m not a JW, but I’m also not a blind believer.

  27. Mike –the difference between Confucius and Rabbi Hillel verses Jesus of Nazareth is that he upted the ante and said that his followers must love their enemies also . and most of all , He recieved worship and forgave sins , taking upon himself ALL perogatives of Diety . So just who is this Jesus ? Jesus even asked his own disciples ”who do you say that i am ?”
    so –in all due respect to many wise men and sages in both East and Western traditions that i have studied for over 40 years , Jesus Christ is either crazy or he is a deicever or He is the One who created you and me . in other words , in this one case in all of history there is an enormous exception that if it really is true that He is who many have claimed he is , then the Man himself is the message . The paradox of the GOD-Man that broke down the wall between God and MAN .
    Since He changed my life 36 years ago and keeps changing it daily , i know him to be the Saviour of the world . this comes not by the epistomolgy of deductive reasoning , but rather thru divine revelation .
    The ultimate proof is a changed life.

    • Very good and I appreciate the refresher course, however there’s one thing that you say and that I disagree with. Jesus is not God and never said that he was or is. He said that only God, who is The Father, as we can learn from another teaching that Jesus gave and which I’ll refer to a little further on, well, he said that only God is Lord. He always referred to God as another Person and as Father, so unless Jesus was pschyzophrenic, dual-personalitied, very forgetful about who he (Jesus) was, then he is not God; and I don’t think Jesus was mistaken or needed psychiatric treatment.

      At Gethsemane, he prayed to God, Father. And not long before he was arrested, etcetera, he spoke of the disciples as his brothers (and sisters) and said they all had the same Father.

      So, Scripturally, Jesus is not God and never said anything even nearing the contrary. He was very and unmistakably clear about not being God and another example is when ten lepers asked him to heal them and he told them to get up and go present themselves to the priests. Along the way to the priests, one of the lepers realised he was healed and instead of continuing on to present himself to the priests, he immediately returned to Jesus, where the man was worshipfully-like thanking Jesus. What did Jesus say? He told the man to not thank him, Jesus, but to thank God, The Father, who sent Jesus.

      What is the purpose of God sending Jesus? It was not to be God-become-man. It was to teach about God’s Will and Way, which includes his universal love and caring for all of humanity. We clearly learn that full breadth of God’s love for humankind through Jesus telling the Apostles to spread the Good News of the revelation of God’s insurpassable and unequal-able love to all people. But there are enough other examples, as well. We also see it, f.e., when Jesus used the example of the pagan Good Samaritan; and, when he taught, in the Sermon on the Mount, I believe, “Blessed be the peacemakers”.

      In the latter, we can notice the absence of religious prejudice, discrimination. The statement he made is neutral in all senses or ways; except to distinguish between people of peace and their opposites, which is certainly not a form of discrimination that sane people could ever think negatively of.

      You also stated the example of the teaching to “Love thy neighbour as thyself”, which, like the above statement about peacemakers, bears no discrimination whatsoever.

      Savior of the world? Not quite.

      I prefer the Gnostic Christian explanation. Like they have written, Jesus did not save all of humankind. What he did do and continues to do through his ever-living teachings that will not possibly ever become archaic or obsolete in terms of their everyday value, he was sent to teach the way and will of God; and conformance with His will and way is the path to Salvation, being welcomed into the Heavenly Kingdom of God when we pass on from this life, here.

      He came to teach the way to salvation; not to guarantee that every human will achieve or receive it, or will even desire it. Clearly, many of our so-called leaders have no desire for being with God. They’re [spiteful] of or towards him and everything He loves; although, they certainly do pervertedly love to falsely make use of Him or belief in Him to try to deceive people who do believe in Him and wish to be with Him.

      But Jesus also said that even the most wicked can receive salvation as long as they truly repent for their sins.

      That’s quite some [universal] love that God has for humanity, I’ll say.

      Also, some or many people correctly understand Jesus as a divider; that following his teachings will or certainly may cause divisions, between people of good will or conscience and ways, versus the wicked, especially the wicked who obstinately refuse to repent.

      • Quote: “Mike –the difference between Confucius and Rabbi Hillel verses Jesus of Nazareth …”

        Not “verses”, but versus. Verses are texts, like in the Bible or Gospels. Versus is for juxtaposition.

        Btw.

        • Yes, I knew what he was saying and wouldn’t have said anything about this if I hadn’t known what the person meant. But it’s like “it is” and “it’s”. Americans need to learn the difference. “It is” or “it has” is shortened by writing “it’s”, but when meaning “it” in a possevive sense, then it is “its”, no apostrophe. Yet Americans or Westerners with supposedly high degrees in academia still screw up their writing; somewhat.

          I was not meaning to ridicule. I’m just a little tired of bad English from Americans or westerners who should know better. I also don’t appreciate hyphens being used when they grammatically don’t fit. A lot of people have developed a weird habit of using hyphens instead of the correct parantheses, semi-colons, commas, etcetera; and many writers use these hyphens illogrically. I don’t know where Americans or westerners get their education from, but evidently no school I ever was a student in.

          If we don’t communicate clearly, then it leaves everything else we say up to question, for we immediately make ourselves seem to be junior of mind or education; and some people with only hich school diplomas are more brilliant than some so-called PhDs are, but this isn’t a general reality. Flaws can and do happen with highly educated people, but when it does, then I need to read or know the rest of what they say to be able to realise whether they’re junior, or not. Again, and imo, some so-called PhDs are awfully junior, when not liars.

          Errors also apply to me. I often make grammatical and spelling mistakes, and these are the light mistakes, for I do worse, as well. I’ve made some astounding semantical mistakes that “blew my mind” upon review. I couldn’t believe what I had written; but it’s because I usually write much too quickly for my thoughts. I often write faster than I think and this is often a … bit of a problem. One example made me flame and then I realised that it was my writing. Oh-oh!

          But I always welcome feedback and when and if I’m demonstrably shown to have been wrong, then I will correct, or will at least consider what the others have to say.

          We need to be careful when we write and I wish that I made less errors than I do, but …, well, I do. This includes important topics and it really bugs me that I post flawed writing in these cases; but it happens anyway because of being prompt, instead of writing and saving the text in separate files to be reviewed before posting, f.e. It’s something I really need to keep in mind for when, and if, I start making use of my WP blog. I don’t want to post flawed communication and have a habit of writing too quickly.

          Some websites or servers permit editing our posts, but many or most don’t.

          Anyway, yes, I knew that the other person meant versus when writing verses. If I hadn’t, then I wouldn’t have said anything about this.

    • Quote: “so –in all due respect to many wise men and sages in both East and Western traditions that i have studied for over 40 years , Jesus Christ is either crazy or he is a deicever or He is the One who created you and me “.

      Some of those, we can figuratively say, like crazy (though in a good way), f.e.. But he is NOT the Creator and there isn’t anything in Scipture that says or even infers the contrary. The Creator is God and what did Jesus say about God? He always referred to Him as Father and I don’t think that Jesus suffered from dual-personality DISORDER. Etcetera. I’ve already posted enough about this in this DS page, so won’t elaborate further in this post about the distinction that Jesus drew between himself and God.

      Westerners, Americans, anyway, are among the last people to look to for understanding the Bible, and other topics; generally speaking. There are exceptions, but we usually need to have income to be able to afford their books, etcetera; and I have no funds for this.

      Even westerners of good intention and who are right about many important things still get things easily and seriously screwed up.

      [edited: unrelated to this post]

        • Where did I go off-topic in the post that you replied to? People here pretend that Jesus said that he’s God, that he’s Creator, God-made-man, etcetera, and my post again states that he never said anything of the like. If all of this is off-topic, then you should not be singling out my post, but since this DS page is about Jesus and who he is or isn’t, then related discussion is inherently opened.

          Or is it my criticism of Westerners’ lack of education that you’re meaning to refer to?

          After all, and as I said, I don’t know of Jesus having contradicted himself. Maybe you do know of examples that illustrate that he contradicted himself, which certainly doesn’t seem to be your point; but I don’t know of any, yet. If we go based on Westerners, then I can quickly find examples; but they usually or always are easy to prove to be invalid.

          I came across some videos recently in which some Christian minister in Canada, among some other people, supports the notion that Jesus is a mythological messiah based on ancient Egyptian religion, but I’m not satisfied. While there apparently are strong similarities regarding birth and messianism, and plenty of other religions or people believed or said that there’d eventually be a messiah, I am not satisfied. I would need a full and open Q&A, with real and honest answers, but we don’t get this. There’s no way to question the content of what’s presented in this or these videos.

          If we can’t do that, if we can’t have an open Q&A, then we may as well eat some humble pie, go down the street and pick more apples, and have a lovely day. I can do this, though might also think of every apple as a blessing from God, which it is; dah-oh-ha, come to think of it.

          Really, relationship with God is simple. It requires no rocket science. The more mature we are, the better our communications with or to God can be, but it can and should all be kept simple. No rocket scientist can out-do or -perform God. It’s better to be [humble]; much better. The second we put humility aside, we cut communictation with God, instead of creating or holding it. God dwards rocket scientists! There’s nothing they or any of us can teach Him.

          Humility is required, and many people with little education are arrogant. Consider most politicians. They have pieces of paper that say that they are degreed, but they clearly have little to speak of for real education; yet they arrogantly pretend the opposite.

          So wherein does this stray from study of Jesus? He taught all of these things, so wherein is this straying from the subject of him?

          If Christian faith, religion is not directly associated with the real-world, then it is worthless. Jesus showed the relationship, so the rest of us must follow suit.

        • Where did I go off-topic in the post that you replied to?

          Obviously, it wasn’t about Jesus, God, or religion. You wrote a very long piece about global warming that did not belong here. I don’t randomly edit/delete comments.

  28. QUOTE: “The Golden Rule
    “That which is hateful to you do not do to another … the rest (of the Torah) is all commentary, now go study.”

    – Rabbi Hillel”

    I love those words and it was great to see them for my first time, which was today, at DS.

    For a brief analytical note on the above-quoted words, they remind me of what Confucius said, when he said to not do unto others as we wouldn’t want done to ourselves. And whenever I think of his words, I always think of the more positive and, I believe, complete construction that Jesus employed; when he said to do for others that which we’d want done for ourselves.

    The latter phrasing clearly also means what Confucius and Rabbi Hillel said; but what they said less clearly means or includes the sense that Jesus employed; and I like completeness when it’s easier to perceive, or when it’s more straightforward in its fullness, say.

    I nevertheless greatly appreciate the other phrasing, just having a preference for the positive construction, say, that Jesus employed. One is to not do wrong, while the other is to do good, and we won’t do wrong if we live according to doing good, but we could avoid doing wrong without doing good, that is, without going out of our way to help someone in need, f.e. Yet, if Confucius and Rabbi Hillel meant their words or instructions [fully], then we can argue that they did mean to include the act of doing good, instead of only avoiding to commit wrongs.

    It’s less immediately clear, but if we see someone in need and we could help, having the means to be able to help, and we wouldn’t want to be disregarded if we were in this other person’s situation, then we will not disregard this person. This would lead to doing as Jesus’s instruction says, to do for others that which we’d want done for ourselves.

    But a lot of people could read the words of Rabbi Hillel and Confucius so literally that they wouldn’t realise the full extent of the meaning that these words or instructions really have. Logically, if they’re taken to their full meaning, then they’re like saying what Jesus did, except for the difference in phraseological construction.

    Jesus’s instruction, I believe, is more straightforward, more immediately clear about what its full meaning is.

    We live in dumbed down cultures, societies, so it’s better to be as immediately clear as we can be. We’re not living in societies of intellectuals. We have … creature societies; dehumanized, morally, intellectually, and spiritually speaking.

  29. the evidence from a historical view is a bit scant ./ however , in a divine providential view one could state that that is how God wanted it to be ..so that the messianic revelation can come to each individual .

    christian existentialist Soren Keirkegaard said that Christ was God ”incognito” so that there is objective uncertainty , so that one can have subjective certainty thru faith .

    interesting though with Hiesenberg’s uncertainty pribciple and Schrodingers cat experiment , that objective certainty on anything is impossible . therefore we must go the objectiveUN certainty route in order to have faith .

    but , one thing is for sure : when the good news of Christ came on the scene it was totally unique. there was only one group of people who were ascribing the name of the empheror (SON OF GOD ) to someone condmened by the Empire in scandel and shame , namely crucfixtion . and those people saying this were the followers of Jesus of Nazareth . do that prove it to be true ? no . but it proves it to be uttlerly unique and worth considering in the light of claissical antiquity .

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